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Man Astonished By Prince Philip's Frank Views!

It's a common complaint by the alternative energy nay-sayers. It's also ridiculous, just because an alternative energy source might not operate at full capacity 24/7 doesn't mean it's useless. Obviously solar isn't going to work at night or wind turbines in the calm. That's why you stay connected to the grid where you can use some conventionally produced current until the sun/wind comes back up.

That some people focus on this non-issue as a means of fighting alternative energy is delusional.
 
Robrob said:
It's a common complaint by the alternative energy nay-sayers. It's also ridiculous, just because an alternative energy source might not operate at full capacity 24/7 doesn't mean it's useless. Obviously solar isn't going to work at night or wind turbines in the calm. That's why you stay connected to the grid where you can use some conventionally produced current until the sun/wind comes back up.

That some people focus on this non-issue as a means of fighting alternative energy is delusional.
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Unfortunately you've got to keep the generators spinning while you gather the wind.

Then http://bravenewclimate.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/aemo-wind-power-supply-demand-heat-wave-2009.jpg Windpower peaks at mininum demand (and vice versa) so it will always be boutique power, not totally useless, but the occasional luxury to make you feel satisified.
 
Checkmite said:
True, but I'm not sure it matters. During the day I imagine many use substantially more than the windmill puts out; and the power company charges you according to how much your meter moves over the course of a month. Allegedly, during the times when your windmill is putting electricity into the grid, your meter should run backward.
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That seems like quite an assumption. It wouldn't surprise me if meters don't run backwards at all.
 
Robrob said:
It's a common complaint by the alternative energy nay-sayers. It's also ridiculous, just because an alternative energy source might not operate at full capacity 24/7 doesn't mean it's useless. Obviously solar isn't going to work at night or wind turbines in the calm. That's why you stay connected to the grid where you can use some conventionally produced current until the sun/wind comes back up.

That some people focus on this non-issue as a means of fighting alternative energy is delusional.
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I think the issue comes about because a lot of proponents of these alternative energy sources see them as a sole energy source - that is they want all other power supply sources replaced with solar/wind etc.

They're not so much talking about individuals throwing a turbine on the roof of their house, but rather building enormous wind farms to replace coal or gas-fire powerplants and feed into the grid.

It's much like using hydrodams for your primary source of power (which NZ does). All well and good when they're nice and full, but if you get a drought you get a power crisis. (Incidentally the politicians were wrong; it didn't rain, and it did become an emergency. Yay for river ecosystem destroying eco-friendly power generation!
 
gumboot said:
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It's much like using hydrodams for your primary source of power (which NZ does). All well and good when they're nice and full, but if you get a drought you get a power crisis. (Incidentally the politicians were wrong; it didn't rain, and it did become an emergency. Yay for river ecosystem destroying eco-friendly power generation!
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It's worse. With Hydro you can supply steady baseload power, and readily boost it for peak power, when you want to. And it has the advantage having a known stored reserve. It's just a matter of making the stored reserve large enough to cover long term fluctuations. At worst you have a power crisis once in half a dozen years and you have several months warning. It's also the cheapest, which makes up for any disadvantages.

With Wind/Solar, you have the "feast or famine" situation every BLOODY day. The power is unpredictable, comes at the wrong time, and you can't store it. With enough fossil/nuke/hydro capacity in the grid, it may be able to absorb 15% wind/solar, but it's going to complicate matters.
 
Robrob said:
It's a common complaint by the alternative energy nay-sayers. It's also ridiculous, just because an alternative energy source might not operate at full capacity 24/7 doesn't mean it's useless. Obviously solar isn't going to work at night or wind turbines in the calm. That's why you stay connected to the grid where you can use some conventionally produced current until the sun/wind comes back up.

That some people focus on this non-issue as a means of fighting alternative energy is delusional.
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It is useless for *baseload*. Sorry it is plainly so. But it is useful to fill in and add energy above the baseload. So yeah, solar and wind are good (as additional power beyond baseload), but unless you have got physical or electrochemical reservoire, they are not good for baseload. So the "complaint" is not ridiculous.
 
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Checkmite said:
True, but I'm not sure it matters. During the day I imagine many use substantially more than the windmill puts out; and the power company charges you according to how much your meter moves over the course of a month. Allegedly, during the times when your windmill is putting electricity into the grid, your meter should run backward.

As I said, at the end of the month, even allowing a few occasions of backward-meter-running, I'm guessing only an extremely tiny minority's meters will register a net upload rather than net consumption.
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Not how it should work but I've heard of systems being installed in that fashion.

The correct setup should have a separate meter for generation so that the amount exported to the grid is measured separately to your demand.

Of course a lot of this stuff is new and it's still being worked out. I personally doubt residential-scale renewable energy will be a long term answer to very much.
 
Aepervius said:
It is useless for *baseload*. Sorry it is plainly so. But it is useful to fill in and add energy above the baseload. So yeah, solar and wind are good (as additional power beyond baseload), but unless you have got physical or electrochemical reservoire, they are not good for baseload. So the "complaint" is not ridiculous.
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If it's 'useless' for baseload then it's even more useless for peak loads as you can't time when the generation occurs to coincide with peak demand and you can't turn it on and off when needed.

Of course its not actually 'useless' for baseload at all. It just needs to be managed.
 
SezMe said:
Your conclusion is based on TWO WEEKS of data. Really?
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Yeah. Two weeks of 40°C days, two weeks of zero daytime breeze, and two weeks of power blackouts, because some idjit decided that wind farms could take over a significant part of generation capacity. Oh yeah, backup was powerlines strung across half a continent - they don't work too well in heatwave conditions either.
 
Wind is unlikely to be practical in the near to mid future as a potential primary source of energy, but this report suggests that floating wind turbines could potentially become a primary source of energy, at least for the UK.

And if the technology for floating wind doesn't turn out to be successful, and wind only manages to make up a portion of generated energy, what's the problem? I pride myself on my ability to see things from other people's points of view even if we have totally different ideologies and sources of facts, but i've never been able to get my head around the idea that if we can only get 20%, or even 10% of our total energy from wind power, and thus use 20% or 10% less fossil fuels, that makes it useless.
 
I don't often agree with the royals, but I do in this case.

I suggest we guillotine him last.
 
Noztradamus said:
Yeah, the one on the list he actually apologised for as an actual gaffe was


He was thinking "cowboy", had a brain-fart and it came out "Indian"
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I never realized that! I remember a friend's co-worker saying that Prince Philip was "just saying what everyone else was thinking" which left me completely puzzled.

Does he have a good explanation for the "slitty-eyed" gag?
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
If it's 'useless' for baseload then it's even more useless for peak loads as you can't time when the generation occurs to coincide with peak demand and you can't turn it on and off when needed.
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Statistically speaking that is not true. In the southwest USA, peak loads occur during hot summer afternoons due to heavy air conditioning usage. That just happens to be exactly the same time as solar output would be at its maximum.
 
SezMe said:
Statistically speaking that is not true. In the southwest USA, peak loads occur during hot summer afternoons due to heavy air conditioning usage. That just happens to be exactly the same time as solar output would be at its maximum.
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I thought we were talking specifically about wind power though?

In any case, that's going to vary from location to location.
 
gumboot said:
Most of them seem to me like he just has a very dry sense of humour. I never had much of an opinion of him but after reading those I quite like him.
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Yeah, I liked the following two. Obviously not gaffes, but quite intentional teasing or downright insults.

"People think there's a rigid class system here, but dukes have been known to marry chorus girls. Some have even married Americans."

To Elton John: "Oh it's you that owns that ghastly car is it? We often see it when driving to Windsor Castle."
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