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Major Copyright Judgement

You know what... so far I've based my conclusions on what I've heard/seen in radio/TV news. Reputable news outlets, yes, interviews with reputable people, but still, second-hand stuff.

After just now doing some digging into what little analysis is available, I'm obliged to (pardon the pun) change my tune.

None of the methodologies appear very robust, and everyone admits there's a lot of inference going on, but overall it seems that the impact, industry wide, is either neutral or positive.

I saw one analysis which found that top bands are being hurt, but that lesser known bands are benefiting.

Thanks for making me show the money. You corrected an error on my part.

I would argue that it's not even all the top bands that are being hurt. I'm sure most of us involved remember Metallica vs Napster, The Offspring's support of file-sharing, and Radiohead's free online release from a few years back.

And that's before we even get into the quality of the "top" artists. Are they the "top" artists because they're really that good, or are they the "top" artists because of the labels marketing them as such? Just because Justin Bieber is on the radio/MTV doesn't mean he's a good artist, whereas Citizen Cope is an outstanding artist with very little airtime. Again, this is personal opinion...but I have 3 of 4 Cope albums and I change the radio station/TV channel anytime a Bieber song comes on *shrug* YMMV :D
 
Uh, what? Are you insane? I assure you, Danielle Steele, Piers Anthony, and Martha Grimes do not write novels because they make no money at this. They absolutely make money. And people absolutely write books for money. Read old science fiction anthologies - see how often authors discuss turning out a particular short story for rent money, or something similar.
And they're available for free checkout from your local library ;)

Video games are absolutely as much of an art form as film, books, or music. Yes, Call of Duty 2 and Spider Man were probably made because they figured that they could make lots of money making it. I doubt any film director really thinks that he's contributing something deep to the art world when he makes a film about cars that turn into robots, a kid who can swing through a city, or a British super-spy. Similarly, companies don't turn out games like Modern Warfare or God of War III because they think they'll tell a deep story. Does the existence of 'Spy Kids' call into question the quality of 'Citizen Kane?'

What defines art? Is it ability to inspire emotion? I assure you, people have felt as deeply about the death of Aerith, the effects of war and what you have done to help/hinder it, or the anger you feel as an injustice is perpetrated.

Is it ability to ponder philosophical questions? You make the choices in many video games. You can choose to release a potentially life-ending intelligence back into the 'wild,' or commit genocide. You watch the results of your actions play out before you.

Is it that you passively view the work of an artist, take it in, rather than interact with it and change the experience through the interaction? Many artists would prefer their pieces to create a dialogue between the viewer and the artist, a shared and personal experience.

I actually think that it is the last. The idea of 'active art' rather than 'passive art' has always been controversial.

P.S. The nature of the medium is that as technology improves, the ability to realize creative visions improve. I'm certain that you agree that the advance from black and white to color film advanced the ability of artists to recognize their vision in film. Similarly for CGI, scene changes, 'chase cams' (high quality portable video cameras), stunt technology (pyrotechnics, rigged collapses, etc.). Actually I can point to an easy one - the CGI resampling of flame complexity enabled directors to burn models while maintaining realism - which allows burning buildings to effectively function without the eye-rolling induced from the obvious model burning. Something effectively impossible before (it ALWAYS looked like a model, due to the lack of flame complexity at that size).

Pretty much no disagreement here. But that doesn't mean the consumer should be subject to draconian DRM (like requiring an internet connection for a single player game) or exorbitant prices.
 
I would argue that it's not even all the top bands that are being hurt. I'm sure most of us involved remember Metallica vs Napster, The Offspring's support of file-sharing, and Radiohead's free online release from a few years back.

And that's before we even get into the quality of the "top" artists. Are they the "top" artists because they're really that good, or are they the "top" artists because of the labels marketing them as such? Just because Justin Bieber is on the radio/MTV doesn't mean he's a good artist, whereas Citizen Cope is an outstanding artist with very little airtime. Again, this is personal opinion...but I have 3 of 4 Cope albums and I change the radio station/TV channel anytime a Bieber song comes on *shrug* YMMV :D

Who the **** is Justin Bieber? Never heard of him.

Yeah, you know, I get depressed sometimes when I realize that the folks I'm most inspired by probably draw that same reaction from 95% of the general public.

Greg Brown, Townes Van Zandt, Mississippi John Hurt, Leo Kottke, Gillian Welch, Jerry Jeff Walker, JJ Cale, Vic Chesnutt, Jack Logan... These are tremendous talents, but they ain't picking up statues at the Grammies... Taylor Swift is, and even tho I've heard some of her songs, to me they're pure Teflon, as soon as they're over I couldn't even whistle them.

I'll probably never sell a song, but hey, it doesn't stop me from writing them. :D
 
Who the **** is Justin Bieber? Never heard of him.

Yeah, you know, I get depressed sometimes when I realize that the folks I'm most inspired by probably draw that same reaction from 95% of the general public.

Greg Brown, Townes Van Zandt, Mississippi John Hurt, Leo Kottke, Gillian Welch, Jerry Jeff Walker, JJ Cale, Vic Chesnutt, Jack Logan... These are tremendous talents, but they ain't picking up statues at the Grammies... Taylor Swift is, and even tho I've heard some of her songs, to me they're pure Teflon, as soon as they're over I couldn't even whistle them.

I'll probably never sell a song, but hey, it doesn't stop me from writing them. :D

Van Zandt sounds familiar, but I can't place it off-hand.

I do feel you, though. Most of the country music I listen to comes from time I spent living in West Texas - it has a genre of country all it's own, and you'll never see them on CMT, GAC, etc because they're not Nashville Country.

Of course, my tastes are probably a bit more colorful than most as the best live performance I've ever been to was a B.B. King concert (seen him live 2x, actually - you'd probably really enjoy the show if you ever get the chance). And while I've supported B.B. by eating at 3 of his 4 restaurants (trying to collect them all :D) and going to his live shows, much of his best music can't be found on album in any store - so I turn to bootleg copies.


This is why I can't be completely anti-piracy - to completely demonize piracy means the loss of so much wonderful art and music that would never be heard, never be shared, lost for all time but to the lucky few that were able to record it live. And that is a great loss. Of course, again, YMMV :)
 
I would argue that it's not even all the top bands that are being hurt. I'm sure most of us involved remember Metallica vs Napster, The Offspring's support of file-sharing, and Radiohead's free online release from a few years back.



The problem with the "piracy doesn't hurt music" argument is that this is based on a model where copyright is protected. The mere fact that there are laws in place, and these laws are enforced, ensures that piracy is not as widespread as it would be were it perfectly legal. Further, the only measure that can really be made of piracy is whether people still make a profit or not. Sure, you can point to bands that make tonnes of money and say "piracy isn't hurting them" but you absolutely cannot extrapolate that to argue that absent copyright protections they would still be making plenty of money.

There's multiple different arguments here. You can argue that piracy is not killing these industries. You can argue that copyright enforcement in some jurisdictions is draconian. You can argue that publishers are using copyright laws to exploit artists and punish fans. You cannot make the argument that these points (if all true) demonstrate that copyright should not exist.
 
The problem with the "piracy doesn't hurt music" argument is that this is based on a model where copyright is protected. The mere fact that there are laws in place, and these laws are enforced, ensures that piracy is not as widespread as it would be were it perfectly legal. Further, the only measure that can really be made of piracy is whether people still make a profit or not. Sure, you can point to bands that make tonnes of money and say "piracy isn't hurting them" but you absolutely cannot extrapolate that to argue that absent copyright protections they would still be making plenty of money.

There's multiple different arguments here. You can argue that piracy is not killing these industries. You can argue that copyright enforcement in some jurisdictions is draconian. You can argue that publishers are using copyright laws to exploit artists and punish fans. You cannot make the argument that these points (if all true) demonstrate that copyright should not exist.
I was not making the argument that copyright should not exist, but if that's how you want to paint my argument:

Can you point us toward a study, or any evidence, that piracy would ruin the music industry if it were not illegal?

Let's admit that, for most people, piracy is not hard and also not likely to result in prosecution. Games and music are very much readily available to anyone who desires to simply pirate them. That, after all, is the insinuation that's been made many times over in this thread - that piracy is rampant, and this rampant availability of free copies has resulted in loss of sales.

Do you have any evidence that piracy has caused a decrease in overall album/game sales?

We can, and have, provided examples of games sales that are continuing to make new records. As Piggy found when he did a bit of digging, album sales for all but the "top" artists have increased or not suffered at all - and we've attempted to discuss whether that was due to poor talent being marketed as above average or due to piracy (hint: when people don't know who the top talent is as marketed by the radio and MTV/VH1/et al, it's not piracy that's the issue).


Ok, now that I've done that, can we get back to the real world instead of the extremes of "all or nothing" that everyone paints around the opposition?
 
Uh, what? Are you insane? I assure you, Danielle Steele, Piers Anthony, and Martha Grimes do not write novels because they make no money at this.

That doesn't even make sense. I didn't claim that writers choose to be writers because they don't make money. That's bizarre.

I am saying that making money isn't their motivation for being writers. And having just flicked through a few interviews with Danielle Steele, Piers Anthony, and Martha Grimes, I can assure you that none of these writers are writers because of the money. They write because they need to write, because they have ideas and stories they need to share. The fact that they make money from it simply enables them to focus on doing that, and not have to earn a living elsewhere.



And people absolutely write books for money. Read old science fiction anthologies - see how often authors discuss turning out a particular short story for rent money, or something similar.

Yes, writers produce work for money alone - if that's your sole source of income you have no choice. But to what end? Well here's Piers Anthony's take:

"let me say that I don't consider Xanth the pinnacle of my career. Xanth is what pays my way so I can afford to do serious writing"

Serious writing. He sometimes has to put out money-makers, but only to give him an income so he's free to do his real writing, the stuff that matters, his art.


Video games are absolutely as much of an art form as film, books, or music.

They're not though. Video games aren't about artistry. They don't attempt to make compelling statements about the world around us. They don't offer insight into the human condition. They're entertainment. Facets of video game design involve artistry, sure, but the overall work is not a piece of art. It's a technical product, designed for entertainment, and the people at the heart of creating these games are technicians and businessmen, not artists.



I doubt any film director really thinks that he's contributing something deep to the art world when he makes a film about cars that turn into robots

Really? Michael Bay on Transformers:

"Well, the underlying theme to me is really no sacrifice, no victory. That was something I wanted to nail. My movies often deal with the hero arch-type and the boy becoming a man, kind of like Nic Cage becoming a hero in The Rock."

You'd be surprised how important filmmakers think their film is.

Similarly, companies don't turn out games like Modern Warfare or God of War III because they think they'll tell a deep story.

The difference is the primary personality behind these games doesn't think they're making some profound work. In almost all film cases the primary personality really does think this.


What defines art?.

I don't think any of the things you've mentioned "define" art. A punch in the face can inspire emotion, a traffic light forces you to make a decision and witness the consequences of that decision, and a coffee machine is interactive. None of that is art.

Art often does all of these things. But fundamentally, for me, the defining characteristic of art, and particularly what separates it from design, is that art is conveying a message intended to influence the audience's values and view of the world.
 
As Piggy found when he did a bit of digging, album sales for all but the "top" artists have increased or not suffered at all

Now wait a second. Piggy said he found this after digging, without a link or reference to where he found this.

I don't take this claim seriously without some links to where he was digging.
 
I was not making the argument that copyright should not exist

Okay so the crux of the discussion is whether you should be allowed to break the law or not?

That seems a bit left field, but okay.

Laws maintain social integrity because without them you have anarchy, and anarchy is not productive for anyone except a very small group of people. Ultimately anarchy doesn't work and every time it has been tried (I say "tried" but really anarchy usually comes about due to social collapse, not because of some sort of conscious social experiment) it has failed miserably.

Since you agree that there should be copyright law, and since breaking laws, as a principle, is severly detrimental to the future health of human society, you shouldn't break copyright law.

That work for you?


Ok, now that I've done that, can we get back to the real world instead of the extremes of "all or nothing" that everyone paints around the opposition?

I'm not sure how much discussion you've had with people about copyright, but I've had quite a bit - I've studied copyright law quite extensively and it's something of particular relevance to me. A LOT of people are quite opposed to any copyright law.
 
They're not though. Video games aren't about artistry. They don't attempt to make compelling statements about the world around us. They don't offer insight into the human condition. They're entertainment. Facets of video game design involve artistry, sure, but the overall work is not a piece of art. It's a technical product, designed for entertainment, and the people at the heart of creating these games are technicians and businessmen, not artists.

Actually the same could be said for movies, books, pictures and tv shows.

Just as there are things in those genres that don't offer insight into the human condition (e.g. Abstract expressionism, certain aspects of Modernism in music, trashy novels, some horror/action movies, Big Brother and soap operas) but you aren't saying that the entire genre is not art.

At present video games are the inverse of the above, most games are just designed for mindless entertainment, but there are games that do offer insights into the human condition. From what I've heard (since I'm not a PS3 gamer) the game Heavy Rain spends plenty of time on character development. The PC game Mafia was essentially an interactive movie about the life of a man in the Mafia.

Video games have an untapped potential to make great art, but it isn't going to happen overnight.
 
Michael Bay on Transformers:

"Well, the underlying theme to me is really no sacrifice, no victory. That was something I wanted to nail. My movies often deal with the hero arch-type and the boy becoming a man, kind of like Nic Cage becoming a hero in The Rock."

Did he really say "arch-type"?

:dl:
 
[...]

Developers have intentionally put more of their effort into consoles because they know it's less viable to crack console games. In the same way developers have put more effort into multiplayer - the singleplayer mode of many new games is pathetic.

[...]

That's the real reason the PC market is dying.


Has the relative standardisation of the consoles as a development platform
not also got something to do with it? I recall a developer of one of the more
successful "military sim'"/shoot-em-up games mentioning that the variety of
the PC hardware that gamers use nowadays makes it harder for them to fully
test or support their product on the PC.
 
Has the relative standardisation of the consoles as a development platform
not also got something to do with it? I recall a developer of one of the more
successful "military sim'"/shoot-em-up games mentioning that the variety of
the PC hardware that gamers use nowadays makes it harder for them to fully
test or support their product on the PC.

Actually the PC market is much more homogeneous for games developers than it used to be, it is still by far the most expensive platform in regards to testing and bug fixing but nothing like it was years ago.
 
Actually the PC market is much more homogeneous for games developers than it used to be, it is still by far the most expensive platform in regards to testing and bug fixing but nothing like it was years ago.

Agreed.

Keep in mind, however, that the pace at which PC technology moves forward, it's hard for a developer to keep up. A game which enters development today must be designed for the state-of-the-art gaming system 2-3 years from now.

Meanwhile, the gaming console will continue to use the same architecture for 4-5+ years, until the next gaming console is marketed. Even the development of a new gaming console is, relatively, easy for a game developer to build a game for. The specs of the next generation gaming console are made available well in advance of the actual release date - take for instance the XBox release in conjunction with Halo, et al. This is just not as easily accomplished with the variety of technologies in the PC.
 
Okay so the crux of the discussion is whether you should be allowed to break the law or not?

That seems a bit left field, but okay.

Laws maintain social integrity because without them you have anarchy, and anarchy is not productive for anyone except a very small group of people. Ultimately anarchy doesn't work and every time it has been tried (I say "tried" but really anarchy usually comes about due to social collapse, not because of some sort of conscious social experiment) it has failed miserably.

Since you agree that there should be copyright law, and since breaking laws, as a principle, is severly detrimental to the future health of human society, you shouldn't break copyright law.

That work for you?
Not really. It doesn't address the question of whether there should be copyright law at all, and if so, what the limits of that law should be.

Do you have any evidence that piracy is leading to anarchy?
 
it is still by far the most expensive platform in regards to testing and bug fixing but nothing like it was years ago.
It's interesting then that PC games here were/are much cheaper than the console versions. I remember paying about $40-$50AU for my "Lego" game(s) and the console versions were about $60-$80. I remember at the time asking why there was such a difference in the price. You'd expect it to be the other way around if there's more work involved in developing the pc version, wouldn't you?
 
They're not though. Video games aren't about artistry. They don't attempt to make compelling statements about the world around us. They don't offer insight into the human condition. They're entertainment. Facets of video game design involve artistry, sure, but the overall work is not a piece of art. It's a technical product, designed for entertainment, and the people at the heart of creating these games are technicians and businessmen, not artists.

This is just plain ignorance.
 
It's interesting then that PC games here were/are much cheaper than the console versions. I remember paying about $40-$50AU for my "Lego" game(s) and the console versions were about $60-$80. I remember at the time asking why there was such a difference in the price. You'd expect it to be the other way around if there's more work involved in developing the pc version, wouldn't you?

I think part of that is because it's so easy to copy the PC version. With the console version, they have you locked in - you either pay their price, go without, or risk bricking your console. Since the PC version can be so easily (relatively) copied, it has to be priced at a point that is more reasonable. Think of it as extortion, if you will ;)
 
Yes BobTheDonkey, that's pretty much what I was told at the time, that the console games cost so much because that's what they can get away with charging for them. It makes the cost of having a console that much higher if you're paying up to nearly double. It could be another reason they've stopped doing PC games - if they can get $80 per sale it's better for them than getting $45.
 
And they're available for free checkout from your local library ;)
Also, I can legally rent video games from a number of sources, for free (minus a subscription).

This is different from piracy.
Pretty much no disagreement here. But that doesn't mean the consumer should be subject to draconian DRM (like requiring an internet connection for a single player game) or exorbitant prices.
There is no such thing as an 'exorbitant price.' Either you pay it or you don't. This is it. You have no right to demand that a team of programmers who spent millions making a game set a price that you think is reasonable. Hell, you wouldn't have that right if they spent $10.

It is NOT life saving medication. If you don't like the price, don't pay. Do you steal a plasma TV because 50" TVs are 'too expensive?'

P.S. PC games are priced cheaper than console games because Microsoft/Sony take a cut of each game purchase when they are sold on the console - licensing fees. But thanks for demonstrating your ignorance again.
 
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