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Major Copyright Judgement

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Fact is, the rise of piracy has had a profound negative impact on actual sales.

Sorry, I don't really support downloading but I'd like to see some evidence before I accept that claim - especially as it doesn't match the (admittedly limited) experience I have of downloaders.
 
Actually that's the perfect example of copyright theft.
I love the irony - I was not aware that the copyright had been stolen in the first place, just that the song was still under copyright.

It was made up by some kindergarten kids and their teachers in 1893, but then published by the Summy Company in 1935 without the permission of the creators.

It's the 1935 copyright that has since been "enforced".

In actual fact they don't have any legal basis for ownership of the copyright, as the original publication they purchased was illegal.
 
The flaw with this reasoning is it assumes people are morally fair, and if they preview a work and decide they like it they will then go out and purchase it legally.

While some people do this, the reality is the overwhelming majority of people are of the "give an inch and they take a mile" variety, and once they've acquired something they like for free, they won't spend money on purchasing the same thing again.

The simple fact is, IF society wants to enjoy the product of artists, society has an obligation to ensure those artists are sufficiently remunerated for that art so that they can continue making it.

Evidence/Study?
 
The flaw with this reasoning is it assumes people are morally fair, and if they preview a work and decide they like it they will then go out and purchase it legally.

While some people do this, the reality is the overwhelming majority of people are of the "give an inch and they take a mile" variety, and once they've acquired something they like for free, they won't spend money on purchasing the same thing again.

The simple fact is, IF society wants to enjoy the product of artists, society has an obligation to ensure those artists are sufficiently remunerated for that art so that they can continue making it.
I quite agree. Correctly applied copyright engenders, fosters and nurtures creativity.

I am dimly aware of some research being made into the area, suggesting that 15 years was optimal for both creator and consumer.
 

Oh, so you don't have a study/evidence for this claim - just a general "primer" on economics?


Ok. Just so you're aware, your ad-hom attacks thoughout this thread have you sitting on the border of being put on ignore. Something I've resorted to for only a handful of people over the past few years. If you cannot see fit to engage in a healthy discussion, then why are you even here?
 
The flaw with this reasoning is it assumes people are morally fair, and if they preview a work and decide they like it they will then go out and purchase it legally.

Is it also flawed reasoning that some would pay $500 for a pair of shoes when they could get a nigh-identical off-brand for $50? Are they just being "morally fair" or do they have money and want to spend it on what they like? Even if they buy the $50 shoes that $450 still goes to something they enjoy/support doesn't it?

I hope no one tells corporate executives that you can get a Rolex knockoff on the streets of New York, morally unfair humans would never buy a real watch again, would they? Bad analogy? If it looks like a Rolex and keeps good time, what benefit of the real watch are you sacrificing? Oh yeah you sacrifice the satisfaction/prestige of having a real Rolex, not such a bad analogy after all.

The simple fact is, IF society wants to enjoy the product of artists, society has an obligation to ensure those artists are sufficiently remunerated for that art so that they can continue making it.

The arts certainly seem to be alive and well so far, how many decades do you wildly speculate that it will take for piracy to destroy the arts and bankrupt the artists? (Or for knockoffs to destroy Rolex and Gucci)

No one in this thread can back up the unknowable assertion that piracy has been a net negative (or positive) for the industries and artists in question. Opinions can be hurled both ways but the required data is just absent.

Without facts we argue emotions and get nowhere in 13 pages. Let's try admitting the lack of critical information and see where that takes us.


Edit: Let's go further on the watch analogy, cause I wanna. If a man buys 20 knockoff watches (let's say watches of equal value.. like video games, songs on average, and movies) of various brands then goes and buys the real one that he decides looks/feels the best on his wrist, how much money has the watchmaking industry lost?

Is it "unfair" that one guy gets to sample the look and feel of the watches as much as he wants and another law-abiding guy wishes he'd gone with silver? Sure, it's unfair.

The analogy is imperfect because the knockoff transactions cost the rest of the economy generally like a marijuana sale or something in the watches' case. Correcting that imperfection would only make piracy look better by comparison so you shouldn't mind much.

So piracy is unfair, but is it wrong? That's purely a matter of opinion, go to any thread on capitalism for an example. We can have a philosophical debate about it but the factual debate is over. Everyone who claims piracy is good/bad for the industry is spouting opinion, we do not have that information.
 
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I quite agree. Correctly applied copyright engenders, fosters and nurtures creativity.

I am dimly aware of some research being made into the area, suggesting that 15 years was optimal for both creator and consumer.

Deciding on a timeline for limiting copyright is very difficult. I think one thing that hasn't been sufficiently justified is why there should be a limit.

I mean, if I create something, it's mine, period. By what logic should anyone else ever have free access to it without my permission or the permission of my descendants? If I build a house it doesn't suddenly become the local council's property after a certain time. It remains in my family forever, or until someone bequeaths it to someone outside the family.

The problem lies in the fact that while copyright is in theory protection of the physical expression of an idea, in practice you're really protecting the idea itself.

If I write a poem, it's not the physical paper and ink, or the digital data of the text file that is protected, but the actual words themselves - the specific sequential alignment of words, evoking specific images, ideas, and emotions.

The problem is, for work that is mass-distributed, the individual physical copy is not where the value lies, but in the multitude of distribution. Each individual copy is itself not worth a whole lot - making it affordable to many people. This means mass access, but it also means you need to sell a lot of copies to make any money off it.

As such, copyright protection has to extend a long time in order for any decent amount of money to be recovered.

If you take a fifteen year protection period... an artist might create something of incredible worth at age 20, and thus has protection until 35 - and for those 15 years they can exploit their work without interference. But what happens if the work isn't recognised as having value, or isn't popular, until twenty years after it was created? The artist gets nothing. More importantly, if companies interested in exploiting the work know it will become available for free in fifteen years, why would they offer to give the artist huge sums now to acquire rights? They'll just wait until it's no longer protected.

Here then, is the basic crux of my personal argument, as an artist.

1. Commercial exploitation of a work should be a right retained by the artist and their heirs for all time. No one should ever be able to make money off your efforts, without giving you and your descendants something for it.

2. Copyright should not be able to be transferred to ownership of a corporation or company. Publishing companies should only ever be able to acquire a "lease" that gives them permission to commercially exploit a work for a restricted period of time. Ownership should be retained by the artist. This would avoid ridiculous situations that have occurred in the past such as record companies suing artists for plagiarizing their own work. The current situation, where Copyright is something used by corporations to exploit artists and their work and punish their fans, is precisely the sort of situation that copyright law was introduced to avoid.

3. Personal copying should be treated totally differently to commercial exploitation. A person who has purchased a work should be allowed to copy it as much as they want for personal use, and the time period during which non-commercial copying is prohibited should be limited to the artist's lifetime.

Punishment for violating copyright should be reflective of this approach. Just like drug-dealing (ha!), two separate infractions should exist; possession of a copy, and distribution of a copy. Distribution should only be punished if done for profit, and the fines should be harsh.

The whole idea is to make it financially more viable to acquire the rights legally than to simply make copies without permission.

Someone distributing not-for-profit should only be punished for possession of a copy, and the fine should only ever amount to the accepted commercial value of the individual copy.
 
Oh, so you don't have a study/evidence for this claim - just a general "primer" on economics?


Ok. Just so you're aware, your ad-hom attacks thoughout this thread have you sitting on the border of being put on ignore. Something I've resorted to for only a handful of people over the past few years. If you cannot see fit to engage in a healthy discussion, then why are you even here?

You seriously just asked someone to explain why monetary compensation motivates people to create new things.

The least insulting response I can offer to that is to link you to a primer on economics. I was being nice.

If you want to put me on ignore, knock yourself out. It will not make that question any less painful, I assure you. To even begin to explain that, I need to explain Supply/Demand, responses to incentives, etc. etc. etc. If you have to ask that, I offer Econ 101, the solution.
 
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You seriously just asked someone to explain why monetary compensation motivates people to create new things.

The least insulting response I can offer to that is to link you to a primer on economics. I was being nice.

If you want to put me on ignore, knock yourself out. It will not make that question any less painful, I assure you. To even begin to explain that, I need to explain Supply/Demand, responses to incentives, etc. etc. etc. If you have to ask that, I offer Econ 101, the solution.

Unfortunately, your little dig at me does not properly support the argument that had been made.

Do you have a study showing specifically that piracy has decreased record sales? Do you have a study showing, specifically, that people will not buy pirated music and/or games after the act of pirating?
 
Unfortunately, your little dig at me does not properly support the argument that had been made.

Do you have a study showing specifically that piracy has decreased record sales? Do you have a study showing, specifically, that people will not buy pirated music and/or games after the act of pirating?

Ah, so you had a specific question hidden in there. And here I was thinking you had just questioned whether economics existed.

As for piracy reducing record sales when we've been discussing video games, well aren't you being a bit disingenuous? Of course you are. The effects of piracy on PC gaming have already been discussed. You know this. You wish to make the question look smarter. Sadly, you already stated you have been following the thread for the past two pages, so either your question is disingenuous, or you well, weren't exactly honest about that.

As for pirates themselves, well, they have generally shown to be poor customers, at least for video games:
http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-research-pirates-will-buy-if-the-price-is-right/

Music is another kettle of fish, don't get me started on the idiotic way bands are 'paid' for their albums (it's a rip off by the record companies, and its own problem), but Video Games and film income, by and large, goes to the people who produce it.

As for piracy then buying, studies have been notoriously crappy on piracy (people don't like admitting illegal activity, pretty much period), but with a buying point of 3 pounds (about $5) being their ideal, well, even the study performer said the best way to get customers with that was to release old (err, classic) video games cheaply. He forgot 'release a bunch of forgettable, fun, casual games, and port some console stuff 6 months after its released on console for a few extra sales.' But that's what most successful companies are doing.
 
Ah, so you had a specific question hidden in there. And here I was thinking you had just questioned whether economics existed.

As for piracy reducing record sales when we've been discussing video games, well aren't you being a bit disingenuous? Of course you are. The effects of piracy on PC gaming have already been discussed. You know this. You wish to make the question look smarter. Sadly, you already stated you have been following the thread for the past two pages, so either your question is disingenuous, or you well, weren't exactly honest about that.

As for pirates themselves, well, they have generally shown to be poor customers, at least for video games:
http://paidcontent.co.uk/article/419-research-pirates-will-buy-if-the-price-is-right/

Music is another kettle of fish, don't get me started on the idiotic way bands are 'paid' for their albums (it's a rip off by the record companies, and its own problem), but Video Games and film income, by and large, goes to the people who produce it.

As for piracy then buying, studies have been notoriously crappy on piracy (people don't like admitting illegal activity, pretty much period), but with a buying point of 3 pounds (about $5) being their ideal, well, even the study performer said the best way to get customers with that was to release old (err, classic) video games cheaply. He forgot 'release a bunch of forgettable, fun, casual games, and port some console stuff 6 months after its released on console for a few extra sales.' But that's what most successful companies are doing.

Really? I could've sworn I'd discussed music within the past few pages (as have others).

But, I'm being disingenuous because I'm asking you to provide evidence to back up the assertion that declining sales are due specifically to piracy. That, indeed, the records that have not sold would have sold had they not been pirated.

The title of the study you have linked to backs up my assertions - piracy is not the problem, overpriced goods are the problem. If the price point is right, people (including pirates) are more willing to buy. By overpricing the item, the distributors price themselves right out of the larger market.

The bottom line is that evidence either way cannot be produced. Ultimately, this is a stalemate (as I posted a page or two or three back).

But, go ahead, ignore that and continue to simply ad hom your opposition.
 
...

You're joking, right? The study linked to shows that pirates would be willing to avoid the various troubles of piracy for about $3-5. You could fund maybe a cheap expansion pack to an existing game on that... or a casual, fun, game like Peggle. Fine if that's your thing, but that's the death of the video game market you're advocating... which, oh look, is exactly what happened to the PC.

What amuses me most is that we can look around and see that the consequences actually happened and people are STILL denying it.

The creator of a creative work absolutely has the right to set the price of his work. If you do not believe it is worth the price, do not buy it. This is not life-saving medication we are discussing, where allowing the drug companies to set the price might kill people. This is not even a nifty new wheelchair design, or artificial limbs, where there are ethical reasons to reduce price. This is entertainment. There is utterly no ethical reason at all not to let creators set the price of their work.

You cannot construct an ethical position for your absurdity, and you have not even tried to do so. Instead you have suggested that creators do not have the right to price their creation beyond some completely specious and arbitrary point set by a bunch of thieves.
 
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Do you have a study showing specifically that piracy has decreased record sales?

This study cannot exist, there has been piracy as long as there has been electronic media, no control group.

Piracy is both illegal and unfair. Whether it's right or wrong is pure opinion, whether it actually harms the industry or artists is unknowable. Remember only commies get to say "unfair = wrong".

Corp/Artist gets free advertising, how much is that worth? No one knows. Corp/Artist takes opportunity losses from some piracy instances, what percentage of instances and how big of losses? No one knows.
 
This study cannot exist, there has been piracy as long as there has been electronic media, no control group.

Piracy is both illegal and unfair. Whether it's right or wrong is pure opinion, whether it actually harms the industry or artists is unknowable. Remember only commies get to say "unfair = wrong".

Corp/Artist gets free advertising, how much is that worth? No one knows. Corp/Artist takes opportunity losses from some piracy instances, what percentage of instances and how big of losses? No one knows.

Wait, you just said piracy was unfair with the intent being to label it as wrong...so are you a commie? :D

We're on agreement here - the effects of Piracy cannot be known. And with that being the case, why are such draconian anti-piracy measures acceptable? If we don't really know just how much damage piracy causes, how can companies justify excessive DRM or excessive fines levied by the legal system?
 
This study cannot exist, there has been piracy as long as there has been electronic media, no control group.

Prior to widespread use of digital media and highspeed internet connections, piracy was much more difficult and far less ubiquitous than it is now. So, I'd say that we can certainly compare piracy (particularly in film or music) to that of say 10-15 years ago and get a pretty good idea of the effects.
 
Prior to widespread use of digital media and highspeed internet connections, piracy was much more difficult and far less ubiquitous than it is now. So, I'd say that we can certainly compare piracy (particularly in film or music) to that of say 10-15 years ago and get a pretty good idea of the effects.

Not really, because that same period also saw a huge surge in free competition through the same digital channels, and increased offerings from each sector. Also a huge increase in ease of standard sharing (just burning a cd is far easier than making a mixtape). Heck, hanging out and posting on a skeptics forum competes with video games sales in a way it didn't 10 years ago.

And that's just one set of confounding factors. For instance, I could buy World of Warcraft and get hours and hours over months or years of entertainment out of it, for an equal time value of games 10 years ago, I would have had to buy many games/cds/whatever.
 
Prior to widespread use of digital media and highspeed internet connections, piracy was much more difficult and far less ubiquitous than it is now. So, I'd say that we can certainly compare piracy (particularly in film or music) to that of say 10-15 years ago and get a pretty good idea of the effects.

...and the percentage of US homes that had multiple gaming systems (much less one) in 1975 was?

...and the percentage of US homes that have multiple gaming systems now?


And piracy has hurt the gaming industry? Sure seems to be a higher percentage of gaming systems now.

CoD:MW2 outsold every previously released game. As did Halo3 when it was released in 2007.
 
...and the percentage of US homes that had multiple gaming systems (much less one) in 1975 was?

...and the percentage of US homes that have multiple gaming systems now?


And piracy has hurt the gaming industry? Sure seems to be a higher percentage of gaming systems now.

CoD:MW2 outsold every previously released game. As did Halo3 when it was released in 2007.
And we've all agreed that piracy on the consoles is reasonably negligible, as the number of people willing to physically modify systems to use pirated games, which also ruins all online features and breaks the console occasionally, at best numbers in the thousands.

Those were console games.
 

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