Lust vs adultery

[fuelair]

Sorry, that was shorthand for 11,21,31,41;14,24,34,... etc

Doh!


I guess to round things out I should add "extreme s&m fantasy enactment". E.g. someone asks you to arrange for them to be kidnapped, raped, and tortured (including significant bodily harm) at some time in the future when it will be a complete surprise. Is getting some local thugs to do so Bad?

(Not really about adultery any more, but enh.)

The original point of this post was mostly to investigate the "Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, that's the same as adultery" thing.

And figuring that out from oddity of many of the choices wasn't too difficult.
In religion it would make some vague sense. In not-religion it really doesn't.

 

[Irony]

1 is wrong, but not adultery on your part.
4 might be wrong depending on how serious the relationship is and if the other person consents. Again, not adultery on your part.
7 and 9 are rape. (far worse than adultery in my book)

The rest are fine.

 

[roger]

Basically, IMO, doing something physical without consent is immoral, doing something with consent is fine.

The "physical" stipulation is intended to exclude things like fantasies. You may not have my consent to imagine raping me or one of my family members, but so long as it stays in your brain it's just thoughts, it doesn't hurt anyone, and none of us would be the wiser. I'm sure somebody could come up with some kind of warped scenerio which could get me to reverse my opinion on the matter, but I have never thought that morality could do more than cover the general cases - sort of how like Newtonian physics covers most of our everyday physics, but goes wonky at high relativistic speeds.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Which of the following are adultery, and why? Which of them are 'immoral' and why (if the answer is different)? If gender or type of sex (manual, oral, vaginal, anal, other) is relevant, please specify in your answer and explain why.

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse
Adultery, and dangerous.
2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse
Adultery, and IMO, a good way to break up their marriage with their consent.

3. What was that third thing?

4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else
Dangerous. It is doctrinally considered "fornication."
5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone
Doctrinally, this is also "fornication."
6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent
Sweetness and Light
7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent
Stupid, and unloving, and in some places, rape.
8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent
Technically, fornication.
9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent
I hear that is called rape.
10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone
Fornication, though one can't know the last half of that.
11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating
Lust, for all 9.
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating
Daydreaming, and in cases 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10 lust.
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *
A waste of time?
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them
Standard behavior for a male with a pulse, though absent 6 & 7, it is lust.

Could you tighten and refine your list next time? You missed 3 completely.

DR

 

[Lonewulf]

If thinking about someone in that way is lust, then I'm a grateful sinner.

Isn't lust supposed to not really be a sin, but instead a vice? I.E., a prelude to sin, but not necessarily a sin within itself?

 

[Roboramma]

Darth, do you think the things you labelled, "fornication" and "lust" are immoral? If so, why?

(because you haven't yet answered the OP's question).

Of course neither have I, but I have to run off now.

 

[saizai]

Darth - Someone already pointed out that I missed 3. My mistake.

As for "lust", presumably you are referring to "is you look at a woman with lust then you have already committed adultery".

However,
a) is it wrong if a woman does this, or a man does it to a man? You made no mention of this caveat.
b) is it wrong (as in "equivalent to actual adultery") if you lust for someone with whom it would not actually be adultery to have sex with (like your spouse)? If yes, why?

 

[Roboramma]

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse

It's adultery for the married person if their spouse cares. As for whether or not it's moral, I wish I knew.

2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse

Neither adultery nor immoral.

4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else

Similar to #1, though the seriousness of the relationship has a bearing on the morality issue.

5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone

Neither adultery nor immoral.

6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent

Do married people still do that?

7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent

As others have said - rape. And as if it needed saying - immoral.

8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent

Neither adultery nor immoral. I'd think there was something wrong if you didn't...

9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent

Again, rape. Not adultery, but certainly immoral.

10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone

Again, neither adultery nor immoral.

11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *

Neither adultery nor immoral.

41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them

I'll have to think about this one. Give me a few minutes.

My view is that adultery is when you have sex with, or really engage in any romantic activities with - kissing, or even dating without anything physical - anyone else, when you have a romantic partner, (girlfriend, wife, or poolboy) with whom you've agreed that you won't do those things. The agreement can be just assumed, you don't have to have sat down and drawn up terms. No lawyers need to have been present. But both you and your partner will know what that agreement, or it's lack, is.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

With the possible exception of the first question (there are times I can see "adultery" without the spouses consent as OK, other times not), and the OBVIOUS exception to questions 7 and 9 (no consent equals rape, no matter what the circumstance), the rest of these should even be considered moral questions. The only people who are "immoral" here are the tyrannical prudes (see Jesus Freak above) who got in their head that any consensual carnal activity outside of heterosexual, married, monogamy for the sole purpose of breeding more Christians and seek to deprive us of our sexual liberty through "shame" or legal action to please their imaginary master.