'Lost Civilisations'

[Steve]

"If we haven't found it, it doesn't exist."

RALMAO

By extension of KofA's "logic" - "If you cannot prove that it doesn't exist, then it must."

 

[King of the Americas]

Don't anybody tell him about the Mitchell Hedges skull or theres gonna be trouble

Why, what do you know about it?

 

[King of the Americas]

I think we've gotten off topic...

The original OP asks, are there "Lost Civilizations"?

If we can NOT attribute a certain build date, and how something was actually built, I hold the site itself represents a "lost civilization".

I have further argued that this lost civilization had or possessed some sort of advanced technology.

As evidence I have pointed to the PP 'lego stones'.

My question now, is "How were the PP lego stones formed?" Until we 'know' that I don't think we can say that PP isn't a lost civilization.

While I concede that it is possible given unlimited time and resources, these stones could be constructed with merely- water, sand, a block, and time. I do not believe these works represent 'simple' construction techniques, because I don't think anyone would wait through two generations to construct a building. I think some other as of yet unknown method was employed.

 

[Marduk]

Why, what do you know about it?

more than you obviously

I think we've gotten off topic....

because you have deliberately derailed it

If we can NOT attribute a certain build date, and how something was actually built, I hold the site itself represents a "lost civilization". .

a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich[2] from lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku at 1510 ±25 B.P. C14 (AD 440; calibrated, AD 536–600). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 1510 ±25 B.P. C14.

Notable features at Pumapunku are I-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These I-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. I-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the I-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots. The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600-900.

While I concede that it is possible given unlimited time and resources, these stones could be constructed with merely- water, sand, a block, and time. I do not believe these works represent 'simple' construction techniques, because I don't think anyone would wait through two generations to construct a building. I think some other as of yet unknown method was employed.

The rest of the qualified world disagrees with you, about everything you've said, you claim for instance that you don't believe anyone would wait two generations to construct a building, yet buildings in south america were in use for hundreds of years.

The Tiwanaku civilization and the use of these temples appears to some to have peaked from around 700 AD to 1000 AD,

when they finally fell into a state too bad for repair they usually just built a new structure right on the top using the old as foundations. Waiting generations for things to be finished was commonplace in the ancient world, though of course you may not have realised this as its the result of not having machinery or advanced tools to hasten construction.

 

[carlitos]

I don't think anyone would wait through two generations to construct a building.

​

One example from the 19th - 21st century, taking 2 generations just to get through the first phase. Anticipated completion ~ 4 generations or so.

Though construction of Sagrada Família had commenced in 1882, Gaudí became involved in 1883, taking over the project and transforming the project with his architectural and engineering style—combining Gothic and curvilinear, Art Nouveau forms[8] with ambitious structural columns and arches.[9][10]
Gaudí devoted his last years to the project and at the time of his death in 1926, less than a quarter of the project was complete.[11] Sagrada Família's construction progressed slowly as it relied on private donations and was interrupted by the Spanish Civil War—only to resume intermittent progress in the 1950s. Construction passed the mid-point in 2010 with some of the project's greatest challenges remaining[11] and an anticipated completion date of 2026—the centennial of Gaudí's death.

Another Loooooooonng one in Ireland:

Dunkeld Cathedral stands on the north bank of the River Tay in Dunkeld, Perth and Kinross, Scotland. Built in square-stone style of predominantly gray sandstone, the cathedral proper was begun in 1260 and completed in 1501. It stands on the site of the former Culdee Monastery of Dunkeld, stones from which can be seen as an irregular reddish streak in the eastern gable.

Because of the long construction period, the cathedral shows mixed architecture. Gothic and Norman elements are intermingled throughout the structure. Although partly in ruins, the cathedral is in regular use today and is open to the public. The small Chapter House Museum offers a collection of relics from monastic and Medieval times, and local history exhibits.

Here is a pyramid in South America that was built over 3 centuries.

The building of the pyramid was completed in several phases, over three centuries during the Terminal Classic Period. Marta Foncerrada del Molina, in her Fechas de radiocarbono en el area Maya, dates the beginning of construction on the Pyramid of the Magician to the sixth century, continuing periodically through the 10th century.

Really, if you can't even be arsed to go to wikipedia and enter "long construction period," you can go ahead and stop pretending to be interested in this stuff. It's embarrassing.

 

[Dinwar]

I don't think anyone would wait through two generations to construct a building.

Too bad; it's historic fact. Check out how long it took to build some European cathedrals.

ETA: Specifically, check out the cathedrals in Vienna, Austria. I know that one of them (I forget the name) took over 2 generations to build.

If we can NOT attribute a certain build date, and how something was actually built, I hold the site itself represents a "lost civilization". .

God of the Gaps. For each new piece of evidence, there's TWO lost civilizations!!!!!

My question now, is "How were the PP lego stones formed?" Until we 'know' that I don't think we can say that PP isn't a lost civilization.

As I have said, repeatedly and in very large letters, you DO NOT KNOW what we know about this subject. You've yet to do even the most basic research. Your failure to study the subject does not count as evidence. Come back when you've done your homework.

 

[Andy_Ross]

York Minster Building began in 1220. The north and south transepts were completed in the 1250s, both were built in the Early English Gothic style but had markedly different wall elevations.
A Chapter House was begun in the 1260s, the wide nave was constructed from the 1280s and the vaulting was finished in 1360. Construction of the eastern arm and chapels finished around 1405. A tower was built from 1420 with the western towers added between 1433 and 1472. The cathedral was declared complete and consecrated in 1472.

All this was built upon earlier Norman and Saxon building foundations.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

That they polished diamonds (you don't have evidence that they cut them). Anything else is adding your own preconceptions to the data--and in your case, this is particularly true, as you refuse to take thirty seconds (the maximum length of time I've taken to come up with a way to do something you deem impossible) to figure out how something is done.

Great points, thanks.

 

[King of the Americas]

more than you obviously


because you have deliberately derailed it

...

I have been looking for a 'second' dating test to arrive at the same date your guy gave...

That said, I accept this dating, and I thank you for presenting it so clearly.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

You should have read the tread...

From what I read on this page alone, my comment is spot on.

 

[Dinwar]

I have been looking for a 'second' dating test to arrive at the same date your guy gave...

Thermoluminescence dating is often used as a companion to C14 dating. That said, this is well within the range that C14 works well for, so I wouldn't see why a second method would be necessary. Trust me, they took more than one sample in the field (even an "individual" sample is actually run multiple times, so even if they only COLLECTED one sample they RAN multiple).

 

[dafydd]

'I' am not missing anything.

That is a matter of opinion.

 

[Elizabeth I]

​

One example from the 19th - 21st century, taking 2 generations just to get through the first phase. Anticipated completion ~ 4 generations or so.



Another Loooooooonng one in Ireland:



Here is a pyramid in South America that was built over 3 centuries.



Really, if you can't even be arsed to go to wikipedia and enter "long construction period," you can go ahead and stop pretending to be interested in this stuff. It's embarrassing.

York Minster Building began in 1220. The north and south transepts were completed in the 1250s, both were built in the Early English Gothic style but had markedly different wall elevations.
A Chapter House was begun in the 1260s, the wide nave was constructed from the 1280s and the vaulting was finished in 1360. Construction of the eastern arm and chapels finished around 1405. A tower was built from 1420 with the western towers added between 1433 and 1472. The cathedral was declared complete and consecrated in 1472.

All this was built upon earlier Norman and Saxon building foundations.

Here's one close to home for people who live in the U.S. - National Cathedral, Washington, D.C., 1907-1990.

 

[Wildy]

And keeping with the current discussion, the Kölner Dom was started in 1248 and was finally finished in 1880.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I haven't read the thread, but isn't the idea of "Lost Civilizations" by definition a sort of pseudoscience? That is, if they're "lost" then we have no evidence of their existence, so any claim about their existence is unsubstantiated.

If there is real evidence for their existence, then they're not "lost", right?

And again, a link to a very good website (see "forgotten civilizations"--and the blog is also very good):

http://www.badarchaeology.net/index.php

Thank you for the link. I've had a quick look and added it to 'favourites' to read later.

I think we've gotten off topic...

No problem! It is all very interesting.

 

[Aepervius]

That passage from abd archeolgy remind me of something ....

[quot]As a typical Bad Archaeologist, Hancock is unwilling to put forward testable hypotheses about the nature of the ‘lost civilisation’: he is content to assert that it existed and leave it at that. Dealing with the mundane details is not in his repertoire, as he has convinced himself that he has answered the Big Question (a question which, it must be pointed out, is entirely of his own making and not one that exercises Real Archaeologists). In other words, in our state of suspended disbelief, we have not learned anything concrete about this ‘lost civilisation’.[/quote]

 

[Cuddles]

I'd feed them rotten fruit, wait until they passed out, then go in for the kill.

I understand well the 'fermenting arts'.

Our ancestors were better than any here give them credit for.

And once again we see KotA's total lack of any kind of knowledge of anything. His brilliant plan for hunting elephants involves getting them drunk in a way which is not only claimed to be the cause of many drunken rampages and human attacks, and would therefore have the exact opposite effect from the one he hopes, but it actually turns out that those claims are not physically possible. It's simply not possible to get an elephant drunk by feeding it rotten fruit. The claims that elephants get drunk after eating fruit are entirely made up.

So, past civilisations couldn't have shaped stone because KotA can't do it, but they could have hunted animals because... KotA can't do it. Have to love the logic and consistency.

 

[King of the Americas]

And once again we see KotA's total lack of any kind of knowledge of anything. His brilliant plan for hunting elephants involves getting them drunk in a way which is not only claimed to be the cause of many drunken rampages and human attacks, and would therefore have the exact opposite effect from the one he hopes, but it actually turns out that those claims are not physically possible. It's simply not possible to get an elephant drunk by feeding it rotten fruit. The claims that elephants get drunk after eating fruit are entirely made up.

So, past civilisations couldn't have shaped stone because KotA can't do it, but they could have hunted animals because... KotA can't do it. Have to love the logic and consistency.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like I saw a Discovery channel special, that featured a tree that produced fruit that rotted on the tree. Animals of all sorts would gather to consume the fruit, chimps would stagger around, a giraffe's neck turned into a jelly-like swaying motion, and an elephant did a face plant into the ground and stayed there...

The following day the chimps were all rubbing their head, as though hungover, and the elephant was still in the planted position he took the day before.

All that said, I concede that getting an elephant drunk may well pose difficulties and dangers I didn't fully consider.

Running them off a cliff, or into a spiked pit sounds easier.

This wouldn't remove the danger, but I think I could come up with a pachyderm burger if the need were to arise. Some manner of poisoning a spear or arrow tip seems like a prudent course.

I don't believe the PP lego stones were made using conventional methods with subpar tools.

WHEN SOMEONE DOES IT, I'll concede that it CAN be done.

 

[King of the Americas]

With all due respect to those who pounced on my "no one would waste time building something 'they' would never see completed" comment. Building ON a project, extending a finished building, or taking over a project from a different designer/builder is NOT the same thing as one guy, his sons, and their sons carving on ONE stone for their whole lives.

Andesite has a hardness of "6", which COULD be carved with jadiete.

Tools like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hache_222.1_Global_fond.jpg

...are ones I'd try to use, but they were found in France...

There WAS or IS jadeite in the Americas:

http://www.precolumbianjade.com/jadeite.htm

To my knowledge, no such tools have been found at PP.

 

[EHocking]

Correct me if I am wrong

Many people have tried over time, but it doesn't seem to do us any good.

WHEN SOMEONE DOES IT, I'll concede that it CAN be done.

But someone HAS done it - see Pumapunku^WP