'Lost Civilisations'

KotA said:
First, I'd like to say that IF the stones that feature descending squares, that were designed to interlock with others are made of sandstone, 'soft-andesite', or some other easy to carve stone...I would concede that bronze tools might well be up to the job.
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I'm going to ask a big favor here: Please READ OUR POSTS. There have been several explinations for potential methods for forming these features which don't involve anything as advanced as bronze. My method requires sand and a flat rock, for example. Continuing to argue against the use of bronze tools shows that you are not paying attention; you are, in effect, playing solitare.

Also, you again show a complete lack of knowledge of rock. There's sandstone and then there's sandstone. It's a suite of lithofacies. I've seen some that crumble as soon as you pick them up, and I've seen some that felt like a solid lump of quartz (rounded quartz clasts with quartz cement--nasty stuff to have to make thin sections out of).

And finally, with a coarse-grained rock like diorite (relatively speaking, of course) it's entirely possible to carve the stone with a material much softer than the stone. You want to CUT the stone; I'd be satisfied with merely BREAKING the stone. I've broken a lot of very hard materials with my rock hammer. Rough it out with a hammer, then smooth it up with grit (which, by that time, you will be well supplied with) and use a flat slab you cut off from another rock to polish it. Done. We're talking tools entirely made out of stone, wood, and rope. Give me bronze and I can come up with MUCH more efficient methods.

King of the Americas said:
So, can you tell me how the line was made or not?

If you can't then the technology to make it has been LOST.
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Argument from Personal Incredulity is still a fallacy, even when you use someone else's incredulity.

Correa Neto said:
Not sure regarding the early Paleozoic snowball. Its not my turf, since I work with late Archean to early Proterozoic stuff, but I have the impression the extension of continental Paleozoic glacial deposits have more to do with the south pole being located within Gondwana than with a sonwball Earth episode. The contents of the following links seem to agree with my impression, but again, not my turf and I may be dead wrong.
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To be honest, I probably am as well. I know that the Paleocene glaciation was on Gondwana, but I thought there was an earlier glacial episode. Now that I think about it, though, I'm not sure. To be honest, we never discussed Snowball Earth episodes much.

Correa Neto said:
The important thing is that only the Quaternary glaciation (2.6Ma to now) matches the timespan of Homo genus and it was/is not a snowball Earth event,
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Amen to that. I studied geology in Ohio. I know exactly where the glaciers stopped--I've stood on the mound they left when they stopped. The geology building at Kent State University is on a glacial morain, one of the smaller terminal morains left over when the glaciers retreated (they don't retreate smoothly). Literally everything south of the terminal morain--which is in Ohio--by definition was not impacted by the glaciers. Central America is a bit of a drive from Ohio.

KotA said:
Is there a book or publication that fully documents the site, and tests each stone for a specific hardness?
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Yup. Look them up in Google Schollar and you'll get all the data you need. Or, look at the references in the Wiki article YOU CITED. Sorry, but I don't encourage lazyness when it's tied to arrogance.
 
Dinwar said:
I'm going to ask a big favor here: Please READ OUR POSTS. There have been several explinations for potential methods for forming these features which don't involve anything as advanced as bronze. My method requires sand and a flat rock, for example. Continuing to argue against the use of bronze tools shows that you are not paying attention;...

....
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As far as I know, "copper and bronze" chisels are the ONLY stone working tools that have been indeed 'found' here, in the Americas.

If you can employ you method ad arrive at a similar product, then I'll concede that the method COULD have been used.

If you have NO EVIDENCE of the tools 'you' propose, then what are we to conclude.

'I' am simply saying no one now KNOWS for certain. The 'instructions & tools' for these works is "LOST".
 
King of the Americas said:
Doesn't Mars have "2" moons...?
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Pop culture reference.

Bill O'Reilly was doing the same thing you are, but with God instead of Aliens and with the tides instead of ancient architecture. You should look it up some time, it's hilarious. Or… well, it might not be hilarious to you since it may hit too close to home.
 
KotA said:
As far as I know, "copper and bronze" chisels are the ONLY stone working tools that have been indeed 'found' here, in the Americas.
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Than you don't know enough to be having this conversation. First off, flint napping is stone working and I personally have seen antlers, bones, and other rocks used in that process (and by "personally", I mean "have seen people do it, have seen the artifacts in the field, and have seen the museum pieces"). More generally, I've seen enough stone tools in museums and the like to know that this statement indicates a remarkable level of ignorance for someone who wants to have a conversation on this topic. It demonstrates a failure to do the basic research required to hold an informed opinion.

'I' am simply saying no one now KNOWS for certain. The 'instructions & tools' for these works is "LOST".
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No. You're demanding that we have 100% accurate and precise knowledge of how ancient civilizations did everything, which is an unreasonable demand. We can present (and we have) several different methods by which the things could have been made. But because we don't say "Joe Amazonian used this specific tool" you refuse to accept these methods. This is nothing more than the God of the Gaps argument--we don't know everything, therefore we know nothing, therefore aliens.

As for proving that they work, we've mentioned several practical applications of the various methods and several tests that have been done. You simply aren't reading them.
 
Dinwar said:
To be honest, I probably am as well. I know that the Paleocene glaciation was on Gondwana, but I thought there was an earlier glacial episode. Now that I think about it, though, I'm not sure. To be honest, we never discussed Snowball Earth episodes much.
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There were two glaciations back in the Paleozoic- one at the early and another at the mid- to late Paleozoic. Snowball Earth, however, AFAIK only on the Cryogenian (Neoproterozoic) -I once saw a mine face with a dropped boulder within BIFs from that time. Amazing stuff, bad for grade control, good for geology. I think it must be said that even this snowball episode is questioned by some, for it seems there are bits of evidence pointing to areas not covered by ice.

Dinwar said:
Yup. Look them up in Google Schollar and you'll get all the data you need. Or, look at the references in the Wiki article YOU CITED. Sorry, but I don't encourage lazyness when it's tied to arrogance.
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KotA is desparately grasping at straws trying to keep his beliefs afloat. I don't have high hopes he will do some actual research among the scientific literature. He'll keep restricting himself to woo lore. Its comfortable, it sounds good and cozy to his ears, it matches his gut feelings. It matches his prejudices against humans who lived long ago, it matches his overblown impressions about his own skills and his lack of imagination and creativity. He'll also proudly claim he's showing the results of his research. Its a prime example of the Wooful Ignorance Fallacy.
 
Dinwar said:
Than you don't know enough to be having this conversation. First off, flint napping is stone working and I personally have seen antlers, bones, and other rocks used in that process (and by "personally", I mean "have seen people do it, have seen the artifacts in the field, and have seen the museum pieces"). More generally, I've seen enough stone tools in museums and the like to know that this statement indicates a remarkable level of ignorance for someone who wants to have a conversation on this topic. It demonstrates a failure to do the basic research required to hold an informed opinion.

No. You're demanding that we have 100% accurate and precise knowledge of how ancient civilizations did everything, which is an unreasonable demand. We can present (and we have) several different methods by which the things could have been made. But because we don't say "Joe Amazonian used this specific tool" you refuse to accept these methods. This is nothing more than the God of the Gaps argument--we don't know everything, therefore we know nothing, therefore aliens.

As for proving that they work, we've mentioned several practical applications of the various methods and several tests that have been done. You simply aren't reading them.
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Well, OF COURSE I know the Americas had stone tools, I have literally over a hundred examples in my own collection.

I said IF you can replicate one of the works I'd accept that your method could have been used...until then the methodology used and the tools found, then 'how' these things were built is "LOST".

I haven't seen any recreations using period tools...
 
King of the Americas said:
As far as I know, "copper and bronze" chisels are the ONLY stone working tools that have been indeed 'found' here, in the Americas.

If you can employ you method ad arrive at a similar product, then I'll concede that the method COULD have been used.

If you have NO EVIDENCE of the tools 'you' propose, then what are we to conclude.

'I' am simply saying no one now KNOWS for certain. The 'instructions & tools' for these works is "LOST".
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Okay, seriously, can you explain to me your...idiosyncratic use of quotation marks, both single and double?

If you can't fully explain them, I will have to assume this knowledge was lost and that they are relics of some mysterious ancient civilization.
 
said IF you can replicate one of the works I'd accept that your method could have been used...until then the methodology used and the tools found, then 'how' these things were built is "LOST".
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Ah. So it's still "provide this unreasonable amount of data, or else admit that it's aliens." :rolleyes: Seriously, merely because we don't know how some structure was formed doesn't mean that the technology was lost. It's equally probable that we don't know because there are several different techniques that could do the same thing, and there's not enough data to determine which was in fact used. For example, if I hand you a full Persian bracelet I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between saw cut, Dremel cut, or Ringonator cut links. According to you, this means that the technology is lost--never mind the fact that the reason you won't know is because you don't know enough to determine which was used.

This is pure, unadulterated Argument from Ignorance. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you have not done the basic research necessary to hold an informed opinion on this subject, then state that we don't know something. HOW DO YOU KNOW? You haven't done the research. This type of thing could be done every day and you'd never know about it. This could be something they do in a basic archeology class and you'd never know about it. This could have been some grand archeological experiment, which re-wrote the entire field, and you'd never know about it. Because you refuse to actually put the legwork in, preferring to argue from ignorance and demand that others prove your unsupported assertions wrong.

That dog won't hunt.

Do the research, learn enough to not sound completely ignorant (sorry, but claiming that andecite and diorite are the same thing can only be explained by willful ignorance), and ask "Hey, anyone got any evidence for how these are formed?" and perhaps you'll learn something. Barge in without the slightest idea what you're talking about and demanding that we take your ideas more seriously than we take those of profesional archeologists is going to get you nowhere.

Correa Neto said:
There were two glaciations back in the Paleozoic- one at the early and another at the mid- to late Paleozoic. Snowball Earth, however, AFAIK only on the Cryogenian (Neoproterozoic) -I once saw a mine face with a dropped boulder within BIFs from that time. Amazing stuff, bad for grade control, good for geology. I think it must be said that even this snowball episode is questioned by some, for it seems there are bits of evidence pointing to areas not covered by ice.
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Hm....I'll go ahead and retract anything I've said about Paleozoic Snowball Earth events. I think I need to look into that more before I comment on it. :) Also, a boulder within a BIF has to be one of the coolest things to see in geology. :D

Correa Neto said:
It matches his prejudices against humans who lived long ago,
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This is the part I find most confusing. I mean, humans are humans, whatever the time period. Sure, we have more advanced tech, but that doesn't mean people previously were stupid. Take for example food preservation. Today we have refrigerators. In the past (and not that long ago--I grew up listening to Grandpa's stories on this type of thing) they did not. So they preserved sausages in lard. It partially fried the sausages, which is delicious, but it also provided an air-tight and bug-resistant barrier, preserving the food (though it must be mentioned that they were used to the bugs that grow in those environments and were resistant to them, just as we're used to the bugs that grow in our environments; we'd get sick if we ate those sausages, but that's an issue of immunology not of food preservation). Similarly, we know that the Greeks harnessed steam power and had fairly complex mechanisms. The Romans had all kinds of tech (check out a pillum sometime to see high-tech ancient warfair). These people lived in environments which had little sympathy for the careless, particularly the Craddel of Civilization; the stupid did not long survive. And they had hundreds of years to get things right. It's not like each generation had to figure out how to use a hammer again--apprentaces trained under masters, as it has always been and, under new terms, still is today (my company stresses the importance of mentors, which are the modern equivalent). It's completely irrational to think that these people couldn't figure out a way to do something like carve a square hole into a chunk of rock.
 
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At another thread where KotA was making the very same claims and using the very same fallacy ("Wooful Ignorance"), I wrote something on these lines. I said that I can not track, hunt and kill an elephant with spears and bows; the odds are I would have a hard time even if armed with a modern assault rifle. Following his reasoning, this means our ancestors from the megafauna times could not have hunted mammoths and mastodons. They must have had some high-tech tools, long lost by now...

I lack the big game hunting skills. If needed, I would be able to learn, under the proper circunstances. Our mammoth-hunting ancestors would not know how to post something at JREF but they certainly could learn how to do so, under the proper circunstances.

Skills may be forgotten or lost. My social group don't need those required to hunt big game, thus, they are not available. Same with rock sculpting. I may not be able to know exactly how they did it; even if I knew, I may lack the required skills.

Some people are too proud, too biased, too prejudiced, too megalomaniac. They will consider themselves the apex of civilization and fail to accept our ancestors were as smart as they are (OK, at least untill a certain point back in time) and eventually even smarter. They will need an external force, something more "evolved" in their views to explain achievments of the past people which they are unable to understand. Hence gods, aliens, time travelers, Atlanteans...

Its a shame. Its an offense to mankind's achievments, an offense to our heritage.
 
If using ropes, sand, or rocks to make cuts, what would be left over? The ropes would decay, sand will disperse, and the rock tools would be extremely worn. What tools should we find?
 
Dinwar said:
Ah. So it's still "provide this unreasonable amount of data, or else admit that it's aliens." :rolleyes: ...

...
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Not quite...

I said replicate one of those stones using period tools, and I'll concede that the techique could have been used to do the work.

If you CAN'T and moreover can't produce any tool or method of reproducing said work, then I'll argue that the technique(s) to do so have been "lost".

Oh, and I don't believe in aliens.
 
Correa Neto said:
At another thread where KotA was making the very same claims and using the very same fallacy ("Wooful Ignorance"), I wrote something on these lines. I said that I can not track, hunt and kill an elephant with spears and bows; the odds are I would have a hard time even if armed with a modern assault rifle. Following his reasoning, this means our ancestors from the megafauna times could not have hunted mammoths and mastodons. They must have had some high-tech tools, long lost by now...

I lack the big game hunting skills. If needed, I would be able to learn, under the proper circunstances. Our mammoth-hunting ancestors would not know how to post something at JREF but they certainly could learn how to do so, under the proper circunstances.

Skills may be forgotten or lost. My social group don't need those required to hunt big game, thus, they are not available. Same with rock sculpting. I may not be able to know exactly how they did it; even if I knew, I may lack the required skills.

Some people are too proud, too biased, too prejudiced, too megalomaniac. They will consider themselves the apex of civilization and fail to accept our ancestors were as smart as they are (OK, at least untill a certain point back in time) and eventually even smarter. They will need an external force, something more "evolved" in their views to explain achievments of the past people which they are unable to understand. Hence gods, aliens, time travelers, Atlanteans...

Its a shame. Its an offense to mankind's achievments, an offense to our heritage.
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I could kill a mammoth...and I am not diminishing the works of our ancestors. So you can put your strawman back in the box.

In fact, I am saying exactly the opposite. I am saying that our past ancestors were 'better' at carving stone, than we are today. Something has been lost.
 
Wolrab said:
If using ropes, sand, or rocks to make cuts, what would be left over? The ropes would decay, sand will disperse, and the rock tools would be extremely worn. What tools should we find?
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How would one use ropes, water, and sand to cut descending square holes in stone?
 
King of the Americas said:
As far as I know, "copper and bronze" chisels are the ONLY stone working tools that have been indeed 'found' here, in the Americas.

If you can employ you method ad arrive at a similar product, then I'll concede that the method COULD have been used.

If you have NO EVIDENCE of the tools 'you' propose, then what are we to conclude.

'I' am simply saying no one now KNOWS for certain. The 'instructions & tools' for these works is "LOST".
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No one knows for certain,so it must have been aliens. Got it. Thanks.
 
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