'Lost Civilisations'

KotA said:
How hard was this alloy?
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Hardness is not the only factor. Brittleness also comes into play. You obviously know nothing of metalurgy.
 
Marduk said:
this is another demonstration of ignorance on your part isn't it.
The Puma Punku temple was one of the last structures built at Tiwanaku and if you think thats impressive then you haven't seen the architecture at Teotihuacan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan
;)
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I don't actually expect a response or his attendance here, but I shot off an e-mail to Alexei L. Vranich, requesting some specific information about Puma Punku stones' ages and hardness, and I also invited him here to share his findings.

I have thus far been unable to locate a source that can tell me which stones are made of what and how old they are...

Let's just hope he has some free time.
 
KotA said:
I don't actually expect a response or his attendance here, but I shot off an e-mail to Alexei L. Vranich, requesting some specific information about Puma Punku stones' ages and hardness,
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Hardness is not the only factor. Brittleness also comes into play. You obviously know nothing of metalurgy.
 
King of the Americas said:
My response is just more questions...

[1]How hard was this alloy?

[2]Has ANYONE found even a single tool made from this substance?

[3]If so, what kind of tool was it- a saw, a chisel, a blade of some sort?
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1. Harder than stone, in that it is metal.

2. Yes. Did you read the paragraph I supplied, or not?

3. The most specific the on-line summaries get appears to be "I-shaped architectural cramps" and "[other] metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600-900".

Knowing that these exist, which we do, it is a much shorter and more logical leap to "they must have used other metal tools as well in order to cut the stones" than "they must have used some kind of lost technology introduced by a super-advanced civilization, for which we have zero evidence, and which later perfected space travel".

The builders of Puma Puncu and in the surrounding region used metal tools: this is not in dispute. Your conjectural "lost" and advanced technologies are non-evidential, and unnecessary to explain how the stones were cut.
 
King of the Americas said:
I don't actually expect a response or his attendance here, but I shot off an e-mail to Alexei L. Vranich, requesting some specific information about Puma Punku stones' ages and hardness, and I also invited him here to share his findings.

I have thus far been unable to locate a source that can tell me which stones are made of what and how old they are...

Let's just hope he has some free time.
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I have pretty much every excavation report ever published already, its red sandstone and andesite, if you message me your email i'll send you some good ones
:p
 
Marduk said:
I have pretty much every excavation report ever published already, its red sandstone and andesite, if you message me your email i'll send you some good ones
:p
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What is the 'actual' hardness of the lego stones, and the one with the line and the through holes?
 
As to the age of the site, it's about 1500 years old -- not 17,000 as you see in more credulous, paranormal-friendly articles.

Determining the age of the Pumapunku complex has been a focus of researchers since the discovery of the Tiwanaku site. As noted by Andean specialist, Binghamton University Anthropology professor W. H. Isbell, a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich from lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku at 1510 ±25 B.P. C14 (AD 440; calibrated, AD 536–600). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 1510 ±25 B.P. C14. The excavation trenches of Vranich show that the clay, sand, and gravel fill of the Pumapunku complex lies directly on the sterile middle Pleistocene sediments. These excavation trenches also demonstrated the lack of any pre-Andean Middle Horizon cultural deposits within the area of the Tiwanaku Site adjacent to the Pumapunku complex.
​
--summarized from:
Isbell, William H. (2004), "Palaces and Politics in the Andean Middle Horizon", in Evans, Susan Toby; Pillsbury, Joanne, Palaces of the Ancient New World, Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection, pp. 191–246, ISBN 0-88402-300-1, http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/isbn_0-88402-300-1.pdf, retrieved 2010-04-26

Vranich, A., 1999, Interpreting the Meaning of Ritual Spaces: The Temple Complex of Pumapunku, Tiwanaku, Bolivia. Doctoral Dissertation, The University of Pennsylvania.
 
Vortigern99 said:
As to the age of the site, it's about 1500 years old -- not 17,000 as you see in more credulous, paranormal-friendly articles.
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Good point. So KotA's super-people were around and playing with rocks just 1500 years ago. Of course, we have lots of records from that time in other areas that KotA thinks had super-people and yet they aren't mentioned... but I'm sure he has an explanation for that. Probably the dating method used was faulty, as proven by the fact that KotA can't reproduce it.
 
King of the Americas said:
*Yawn*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_poison
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Hey thanks. I always learn interesting things from these threads. I had no idea you could eat the meat of something that was killed by poison. However, since you got the "brewing arts" drunk mastadon thing completely wrong, I don't suppose you've seriously thought this scenario out either. Anyhoo:
  • How much poison frog venom would be needed to drop a mastadon?
  • Assuming that much poison wouldn't fit on just one dart, how would you get a bunch of darts into a mastadon; wouldn't he run away?
  • If you say "I'd bring friends with blowguns," how are the bunch of you going to get close without getting trampled?
  • How would you isolate one guy from the herd of Mastadon without them killing you? There's no way you drop the whole herd; how you going to get all that poison into just one of them?
  • Since it's a slow acting poison, how you gonna track the herd until your guy drops?
  • How did you find jungle frogs in the cold woodlands?
  • Etc.
Please enlighten me. Thanks. :)
 
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carlitos said:
* How much poison frog venom would be needed to drop a mastadon?
[...]
* How did you find jungle frogs in the cold woodlands?
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And hey, related to the two above, how many frogs would that be? Because I think that's a lot of frogs, but I'm not an expert like KotA.
 
About killing Pachyderm:

He not only need to bring a lot of friend with arrow/blow dart , but he also need to be very good at targeting, because elephant has only on a few localized palce a thin skin, otehrwise he has a thick skin AND it is sensible.

The expression of elephants being pachyderms is correct only in part. On vulnerable spots like the trunk embouchure, legs and back, skin can in fact be 2.5 to 3 cms thick, but behind the ears, by the eye, on the abdomen, chest and shoulders it is as thin as paper.
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So more or less , forget the abdomen (unelss youa re getting trampled by it) behind the ear might get quite difficult, ditto for the eye, that leave the shoulder, maybe the chest (OK and maybe behind the ear if you can go through the ear).
 
KotA said:
Better question, what if any, tool marks are left on these inner corners, and how 'cornered' are they?
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If they were polished at all (one of the methods I suggested) therer wouldn't be much in the way of tool marks. Such polishing is intended to remove such marks. This is not to say that a lack of tool marks alone is sufficient evidence for concluding that the stones were polished, but rather to indicate that your line of questioning will not cover the full range of potential construction methods.

In short, you need to be more creative. Our ancestors certainly were.
 
King of the Americas said:
Better question, what if any, tool marks are left on these inner corners, and how 'cornered' are they?
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Why don't you do your own research? Everyone has to provide links and quotes for you, which after demanding you either don't read or, if you do skim them, misapprehend and/or ignore the salient details. It's enough to put one off trying to discuss anything with you.
 
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