Lord Language Resurrection.
- Thread starter Nationalcosmopolitan
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devnull
Philosopher
errrr.... that would be included in the term "schooling your children" in my book 
Nationalcosmopolitan
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"Nationalcosmopolitan, as a former teacher, may I just say that your plan is both idiotic, and unworkable."
It is a paradox, but to learn three languages natively in childhood is easier, than one.
But the child has to be in three languages’ environment.
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.
"First, you want to force everyone in the world to adhere to a plan based on your own particular religious convictions, and the vast majority of the world's population will tell you where you can shove that idea."
Absolutely not, all parents free to choice Hebrew in trilingual native languages pocket to their children or not.
"Second, some people just suck at languages. It's a fact. The same way some people suck at maths, or science, or telling jokes. That's just the way we are. Some people are so bad at languages that they can't even speak their own single mother tongue correctly. And you want these people to learn 2 additional languages. Even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, it wouldn't work, because there will be huge numbers of kids who just can't cope with learning more than one language."
Once more I tell you it will be easier to learn natively three languages than one.
I am sure that you are a monolingual person, that’s why it is difficult you to emerge this.
"Third, even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, AND every kid in the world had the capability, loads of those kids would simply refuse to pay attention in class, and would refuse to do their 3rd language homework. That's just reality. And anyone who's ever taught in a school will confirm it."
The same way as Kids do not remember how they have leaned natively one language they will not remember how they have learned natively three languages.
They will play on computer, being in three languages environments.
Today it is a very cheep global project and parents all over the world will not pay for it.
"Fourthly, as has already been pointed out by others, to be a native bilingual requires that one either have parents with different native languages, or one grows up in a country which has a different native language to your parents."
The teaches of those three languages have to become those “three parents”, using computer distant communication to teach children three languages natively.
"I actually know 3 kids who are natively trilingual - their father is Australian, their mother is Finnish, and they're growing up in China, so they speak English, Finnish, and Chinese, all like native speakers."
Very good example and today we can modulate it to every world kid using widely audio video communication possibilities.
Every language environment will come in the kids room virtually and even more effective than really language environment.
"And that really is the only way to work it. Which means that, for your plan to work, everybody in the world world would have to have kids with a partner who speaks a different language from them, AND live in a country which speaks a third language. Of course, if everyone in the world did this, then the country they moved to for the third language would be completely depopulated of native speakers, and full of speakers of all sorts of other languages, and the kids would grow up surrounded by people speaking so many different languages that nobody would be able to talk to anybody else! And then, of course, you'd have the problem of schooling, because all the teachers would speak their own language, and without a common language the kids' educations would suffer. You'd end up with a world in which meaningful communication was pretty much impossible in day to day life, and everyone grew up knowing little bits of dozens of languages.
It would be anarchy.
It's also utterly pointless."
First of all I want to point, that you have understood my idea of trilingual persons' world very good.
Children must to know languages as if they have two grand mothers and one grandfather of three different mother tongues, that speaks with them all their childhood on those three languages.
We have to modulate this trilingual environment to our children virtually.
It will not be any anarchy because in trilingual persons world every two men will have almost one common language with possibility 99%.
Your franca lingual monolingual mind can’t believe to the man who knows four languages, unfortunately three of them not natively.
It is a paradox, but to learn three languages natively in childhood is easier, than one.
But the child has to be in three languages’ environment.
We can model this trilingual environment to our children, using modern distant communication video and audio possibilities.
"First, you want to force everyone in the world to adhere to a plan based on your own particular religious convictions, and the vast majority of the world's population will tell you where you can shove that idea."
Absolutely not, all parents free to choice Hebrew in trilingual native languages pocket to their children or not.
"Second, some people just suck at languages. It's a fact. The same way some people suck at maths, or science, or telling jokes. That's just the way we are. Some people are so bad at languages that they can't even speak their own single mother tongue correctly. And you want these people to learn 2 additional languages. Even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, it wouldn't work, because there will be huge numbers of kids who just can't cope with learning more than one language."
Once more I tell you it will be easier to learn natively three languages than one.
I am sure that you are a monolingual person, that’s why it is difficult you to emerge this.
"Third, even if you could get everyone to agree to your plan, AND every kid in the world had the capability, loads of those kids would simply refuse to pay attention in class, and would refuse to do their 3rd language homework. That's just reality. And anyone who's ever taught in a school will confirm it."
The same way as Kids do not remember how they have leaned natively one language they will not remember how they have learned natively three languages.
They will play on computer, being in three languages environments.
Today it is a very cheep global project and parents all over the world will not pay for it.
"Fourthly, as has already been pointed out by others, to be a native bilingual requires that one either have parents with different native languages, or one grows up in a country which has a different native language to your parents."
The teaches of those three languages have to become those “three parents”, using computer distant communication to teach children three languages natively.
"I actually know 3 kids who are natively trilingual - their father is Australian, their mother is Finnish, and they're growing up in China, so they speak English, Finnish, and Chinese, all like native speakers."
Very good example and today we can modulate it to every world kid using widely audio video communication possibilities.
Every language environment will come in the kids room virtually and even more effective than really language environment.
"And that really is the only way to work it. Which means that, for your plan to work, everybody in the world world would have to have kids with a partner who speaks a different language from them, AND live in a country which speaks a third language. Of course, if everyone in the world did this, then the country they moved to for the third language would be completely depopulated of native speakers, and full of speakers of all sorts of other languages, and the kids would grow up surrounded by people speaking so many different languages that nobody would be able to talk to anybody else! And then, of course, you'd have the problem of schooling, because all the teachers would speak their own language, and without a common language the kids' educations would suffer. You'd end up with a world in which meaningful communication was pretty much impossible in day to day life, and everyone grew up knowing little bits of dozens of languages.
It would be anarchy.
It's also utterly pointless."
First of all I want to point, that you have understood my idea of trilingual persons' world very good.
Children must to know languages as if they have two grand mothers and one grandfather of three different mother tongues, that speaks with them all their childhood on those three languages.
We have to modulate this trilingual environment to our children virtually.
It will not be any anarchy because in trilingual persons world every two men will have almost one common language with possibility 99%.
Your franca lingual monolingual mind can’t believe to the man who knows four languages, unfortunately three of them not natively.
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Complexity
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Utter nonsense.
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
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Which wouldn't address the problem of the children not actually being in a trilingual environment. Being in a physical environment where 3 languages are spoken regularly is vital in this case.
Ah, so now you are saying that Hebrew isn't a requirement. I thought that the whole point was to get everybody to speak the language of God.
No, hang on, I was right, that was the idea;
Oh, and we seem to have segued from bilingual to trilingual somewhere along the way.
Actually, I speak passable French, enough German to get by, a smattering of Yiddish, and am learning Chinese. My mother speaks English, fluent French and German, and excellent Latin, and my father and grandmother are both natively bilingual in English and German. When I was young many of my school-friends were bilingual. I understand being bilingual, and even multilingual, far better than you might imagine.
If that worked then millions of British and American kids would already be able to speak Japanese.
No. I don't think you have the faintest idea how infantile language assimilation works, or how very young children interact with computers.
Nice idea, totally unworkable in the real world.
99%??? How many languages do you think there are in the world???
Addressed above.
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ddt
Mafia Penguin
With thousands of languages around the world, the math behind that is nonsense. Unless, of course, you're again secretly plugging your Hebrew scheme.
Are you trying to brag? With only four languages? Your English, however, is once again testament to the extent to which you know your second languages. It lends support to my hypothesis that the level of your English command is a not unimportant motivator for your Hebrew scheme.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World.
This is trivially true, given that there is no spot in the world where what NC proposes is possible.
He proposed:
The only possible response to this is : "er, no, we can't." The results from psycholinguistics and child language acquisition and all the rest of the people who study bilingualism for a living are very clear-cut; we can't "model" immersion sufficiently for children to pick languages up natively. Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.
So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London.
six7s
veretic
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What's the problem?
Whoops!
Mea culpa
I simply inferred what wasn't implied
Ah well... if nothing else, it illustrates (to me at least) how language really is a wiffly-waffly art... not a precise science, subject to rules and laws
This brings to mind the whole issue of 'problem solving', and it occurs to me that NC may well be labouring under a mistaken assumption; that s/he has devised a simple, precise and distinct solution to a problem
However, it appears that the problem has not been defined, possibly/probably because - in problem-solving jargon - it's actually 'a mess'; a complicated (i.e. non-simple) mish-mash of problems
As NC's solution seems, to everyone else on this thread, as being both and impractical and severe (involving 'punishment'), I wonder if the conflict has a cultural basis... I have a hunch that, on this thread, NC is unique in coming from a culture where laws are routinely prescribed and adhered to without the freedom to think, critically, about the cause and effect
@NC
errrr.... that would be included in the term "schooling your children" in my book
Whoops!
Mea culpa
I simply inferred what wasn't implied
Ah well... if nothing else, it illustrates (to me at least) how language really is a wiffly-waffly art... not a precise science, subject to rules and laws
This brings to mind the whole issue of 'problem solving', and it occurs to me that NC may well be labouring under a mistaken assumption; that s/he has devised a simple, precise and distinct solution to a problem
However, it appears that the problem has not been defined, possibly/probably because - in problem-solving jargon - it's actually 'a mess'; a complicated (i.e. non-simple) mish-mash of problems
As NC's solution seems, to everyone else on this thread, as being both and impractical and severe (involving 'punishment'), I wonder if the conflict has a cultural basis... I have a hunch that, on this thread, NC is unique in coming from a culture where laws are routinely prescribed and adhered to without the freedom to think, critically, about the cause and effect
@NC
Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem
Thank you
Thank you
NationalCosmopolitan may be on to something here.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed.
Last edited:
Nationalcosmopolitan
Illuminator
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- Apr 13, 2008
- Messages
- 3,510
"Which wouldn't address the problem of the children not actually being in a trilingual environment. Being in a physical environment where 3 languages are spoken regularly is vital in this case."
It is good that you agree, that in some cases it is easier to a child to learn three languages natively then one.
We have to teach children to teach languages and almost everything else in virtual environment that will give in future even more attractive all languages communication environment to the children, than a real environment.
"Ah, so now you are saying that Hebrew isn't a requirement. I thought that the whole point was to get everybody to speak the language of God.
No, hang on, I was right, that was the idea;
Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Only Hebrew – the language of Bible recreated magically after 2700 years of death can and have to be this common language of national – Resurrected Hebrew bilingual Global world.
Oh, and we seem to have segued from bilingual to trilingual somewhere along the way."
It is one of my agitation points to the parents to include Hebrew in trilingual pocket to their children.
I want to force the world to play not in monolingual but in trilingual game, that gives to Holy Resurrected Language to get the first place in future and to others languages not to dead in globalize World.
"I understand being bilingual, and even multilingual, far better than you might imagine."
Who statistically more competitive monolingual or multilingual persons according your experience?
"If that worked then millions of British and American kids would already be able to speak Japanese."
We have to answer at one question.
Is Japan interesting about given Japanese natively to every worldwide kid whose parents want to put Japanese in trilingual pocket.
My answer – yes.
Japan can organize virtual language education all over the world to those kids.
And the same to every other country and all languages speaking communities.
They will teach kids their languages natively using communication devices and possibilities to spend kids holidays and Saturdays and Sundays in communities and families of chosen languages.
"99%??? How many languages do you think there are in the world???"
Several thousands, but the most of people will chose in trilingual pocket one of those languages: English, Mandarin, Arabic, Spanish, Bible Hebrew, French, German, Italian, Latin, Russian.
Because this with very big possibility every two men will have the common native language.
I wish it to be Holy Resurrected Language because I am Jew and Israel citizen and God believer.
"With thousands of languages around the world, the math behind that is nonsense. Unless, of course, you're again secretly plugging your Hebrew scheme."
Not secretly!
I want the world to play my trilingual pockets game and not the game of English natively speaking Monolinguals.
All who is not English Natively Speaking Monolingual will play my game and not theirs.
"Are you trying to brag? With only four languages? Your English, however, is once again testament to the extent to which you know your second languages. It lends support to my hypothesis that the level of your English command is a not unimportant motivator for your Hebrew scheme. "
I am an example of multilingual disable persons.
Billions people in the same lingual conditions of people of second – third sorts.
That why I urge to build the world of multilingual and only natively speaking trilingual persons.
"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.
So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."
It is the task of High Tech communication companies to make every place interactively accessible to every person.
Today using Internet, computer, camera and microphone you can repair the car according my consultations, and I am in Negev, and you are in Chicago.
Ten minutes, and your car will be OK!
"There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World."
In all points of the world it is absolutely really possible and needful to form native multilingual children.
Today you really can be in audio and video communication relationships with every world person.
Nothing else is needed to learn natively all languages your child need!
"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.
So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."
Look at modern soldier or security person.
He is in audio and video contact with his commander and his group and can be extremely physically active in the same time.
The same sort equipment will have every child that will weight mobile phone.
So he can play active games, and in the same time be in audio and video communication with his trilingual environment all over the world.
It is good that you agree, that in some cases it is easier to a child to learn three languages natively then one.
We have to teach children to teach languages and almost everything else in virtual environment that will give in future even more attractive all languages communication environment to the children, than a real environment.
"Ah, so now you are saying that Hebrew isn't a requirement. I thought that the whole point was to get everybody to speak the language of God.
No, hang on, I was right, that was the idea;
Originally Posted by Nationalcosmopolitan
Only Hebrew – the language of Bible recreated magically after 2700 years of death can and have to be this common language of national – Resurrected Hebrew bilingual Global world.
Oh, and we seem to have segued from bilingual to trilingual somewhere along the way."
It is one of my agitation points to the parents to include Hebrew in trilingual pocket to their children.
I want to force the world to play not in monolingual but in trilingual game, that gives to Holy Resurrected Language to get the first place in future and to others languages not to dead in globalize World.
"I understand being bilingual, and even multilingual, far better than you might imagine."
Who statistically more competitive monolingual or multilingual persons according your experience?
"If that worked then millions of British and American kids would already be able to speak Japanese."
We have to answer at one question.
Is Japan interesting about given Japanese natively to every worldwide kid whose parents want to put Japanese in trilingual pocket.
My answer – yes.
Japan can organize virtual language education all over the world to those kids.
And the same to every other country and all languages speaking communities.
They will teach kids their languages natively using communication devices and possibilities to spend kids holidays and Saturdays and Sundays in communities and families of chosen languages.
"99%??? How many languages do you think there are in the world???"
Several thousands, but the most of people will chose in trilingual pocket one of those languages: English, Mandarin, Arabic, Spanish, Bible Hebrew, French, German, Italian, Latin, Russian.
Because this with very big possibility every two men will have the common native language.
I wish it to be Holy Resurrected Language because I am Jew and Israel citizen and God believer.
"With thousands of languages around the world, the math behind that is nonsense. Unless, of course, you're again secretly plugging your Hebrew scheme."
Not secretly!
I want the world to play my trilingual pockets game and not the game of English natively speaking Monolinguals.
All who is not English Natively Speaking Monolingual will play my game and not theirs.
"Are you trying to brag? With only four languages? Your English, however, is once again testament to the extent to which you know your second languages. It lends support to my hypothesis that the level of your English command is a not unimportant motivator for your Hebrew scheme. "
I am an example of multilingual disable persons.
Billions people in the same lingual conditions of people of second – third sorts.
That why I urge to build the world of multilingual and only natively speaking trilingual persons.
"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.
So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."
It is the task of High Tech communication companies to make every place interactively accessible to every person.
Today using Internet, computer, camera and microphone you can repair the car according my consultations, and I am in Negev, and you are in Chicago.
Ten minutes, and your car will be OK!
"There are remote parts of the United States where this is impossible, much less most of the Third World."
In all points of the world it is absolutely really possible and needful to form native multilingual children.
Today you really can be in audio and video communication relationships with every world person.
Nothing else is needed to learn natively all languages your child need!
"Children don't learn language well from television, but only from active participation in the environment -- hearing two people talking to each other apparently doesn't trigger the necessary stuff. The children need to be IN a trilingual environment.
So it doesn't matter if you're in the heart of rural Arkansas, on a farm in Lower Nowheristan, or in the heart of London."
Look at modern soldier or security person.
He is in audio and video contact with his commander and his group and can be extremely physically active in the same time.
The same sort equipment will have every child that will weight mobile phone.
So he can play active games, and in the same time be in audio and video communication with his trilingual environment all over the world.
Nationalcosmopolitan
Illuminator
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2008
- Messages
- 3,510
"As NC's solution seems, to everyone else on this thread, as being both and impractical and severe (involving 'punishment'), I wonder if the conflict has a cultural basis... "
I can repeat that monolingual children education must be forbidden practically in every possible legal way.
Only trilingual natively speaking people the future Global Multicultural World of multicultural persons need.
"Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem"
To force all the world to believe that triresurrection phenomena brings trilingual persons’ global world were Holy Resurrected Language will be more and more dominate in future and that this post monolingual world will be really the world of all people intellectual, creative and spirit comfort.
"NationalCosmopolitan may be on to something here.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed."
It is a really picture of natively speaking English monolingual atheistic pagan world were we trend to go now.
To stop these all-national cultures’ catastrophe trend we need to form multilingual and multicultural persons from our children and believe in God.
We simply have to believe in GOD TRIRESURRECTION PHENOMENA.
I can repeat that monolingual children education must be forbidden practically in every possible legal way.
Only trilingual natively speaking people the future Global Multicultural World of multicultural persons need.
"Before you provide any more details on how you propose to implement your solution, please identify the problem"
To force all the world to believe that triresurrection phenomena brings trilingual persons’ global world were Holy Resurrected Language will be more and more dominate in future and that this post monolingual world will be really the world of all people intellectual, creative and spirit comfort.
"NationalCosmopolitan may be on to something here.
After we create a state where an almost dead religious language is steadfastly mandated, we can move on to other ancient practices.
Sacrifices, blood-letting, and ritual stonings are always good.
Lets discard computers, pens, and paper. Let's go back to papyrus and scribes, brickmakers and slaves.
Oxen for the fields have less of a carbon footprint. I'm beginning to see where this is going...
If most of humanity dies, we can go back to where we were. Fine. Who am I to judge.
Enjoy the straw. It shouldn't be hyperallergenic as most of the allergens have been removed."
It is a really picture of natively speaking English monolingual atheistic pagan world were we trend to go now.
To stop these all-national cultures’ catastrophe trend we need to form multilingual and multicultural persons from our children and believe in God.
We simply have to believe in GOD TRIRESURRECTION PHENOMENA.
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Atheistic pagan?
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
I think you might cross India, where the lingua franca is English.
This whole idea is like hering a choruse of What a Wonderful World it Would Be.
Yeah, sure! It'd be great. But when you cross the line to "compulsory", you lose my vote. I'm already trilingual. My (soon to arrive) son is likely to be quatri-lingual or more (English, Thai, Cantonese, Lao... just from his parents and I'll probably try to get him in a school early that has Mandarin immersion). But if anyone was to hand me a writ from the UN or the local government or my home government (USA) saying that I was now mandated that my child had to learn three languages .... Or Else... I'd be heading for Idaho with the tinned provisions.
NC, you'd probably have a more receptive audience for learning new languages if you'd learn to use the forum software. The quote feature is our friend.
Addendum:
Why not just let history take its course. Forty years ago, when I was in the US southwest, the only Spanish speakers were Latino(a)s. Now there are numerous people who've picked up the language for reasons of practicality. As the world shrinks and more and more people work in various countries and regions, this will occur more often.
I also have a number of friends here, westerners, who've managed in various countries in Asia.
It's not at all uncommon to have some like my friend Christian's family.... He's Danish, wife is French. Both speak English fluently. They had their first kid in Thailand where he learned that language plus the three he'd picked up at home. They moved to Indonesia where he picked up the local language to a certain degree. They then moved to Singapore, where he got better at English. They're now in Hong Kong, where the little nipper is picking up Cantonese on the playground.... And Japanese in school, because they sent him to the Japanese school (education is in English but there are several hours a week in Japanese, plus he WANTED to learn it to talk to the cute Japanese girls in his class).
six7s
veretic
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- Jun 17, 2007
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- 8,716
Please note:
Your response does NOT equate to an identification of the problem
Nor does it make any sense, either... but that is an different issue
Please, identify the problem for which you think you have a solution
The_Fire
Unimpressed Female
Atheistic pagan?
Ye're not the only one, lass......
six7s
veretic
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I was thinking of India when I wrote that post... hardly surprising, given my ancestry and travel experience...
And, whilst you're right re English being the lingua franca, it occurs to me that Urdu and Hindi each have a rich and loooooong history (with roots in Sanskrit?) that, I imagine, the man on the Mumbai omnibus may well be reluctant to abandon in favour of some johnny-come-lately lingo from the Mediterranean
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