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Loose Change

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Regnad Kcin said:
If you're really "really interested," please go back and read this thread.
Oh. So you do know how controlled demolition works, yet you don't think WTC buidlings were brought down with explosives, not even a slightest bit of suspicions crossing your mind? Heh, that's crazy...or just denial.
I'm not certain how your response follows my statement, but I'll address what you wrote anyway:

It doesn't matter whether I have the "slightest bit of suspicions [sic]" or a great heaping deal of the stuff. If one starts with suspicion then he runs the risk of becoming personally attached to those feelings. Then the search will begin to validate or support the hypothesis and ignore that which doesn't. The proper way to look at any investigation of this sort is to take the evidence first and see where it leads and perhaps concludes.

Now, if you are arguing that there was some plot or plots that took place on 9/11, that's a bit different. For that you'll have to provide proof.

Proof. Evidence. Facts.

It should be easy. Because what you seem to be suggesting would be the largest operation of its kind (both in planning and execution) in history.
 
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They're popin' up all over the interweb too. My favorite local cycling web site has seen a long time poster suddenly start parroting the Loose Change and the other conspiracy lot. And were not even supposed to be talking about that type of thing in that forum. The title says "Random cycling talk..." I expect the administrator will shut us down that thread at any time, but I'll counter him as long as I'm allow'd.

Thanks to this and many other web sites I've been able to whack about every mole that he's caused to pop up. And, since I didn't participate in it, I hope you folks don't mind me plagiarizing your Death Star routine...

And this guy is a Cornell-educated cycling buddy of mine. We've ridden together many times and I had taken him for a right skeptical guy--I had no idea he was a conspiracy nut. Oy.
 
Geggy, if you're unsatified with the Bush administration, there are plenty of democratic ways to show your discontempt, rallies, protests, etc. Don't fabricate lies about conspiracies that only insult the memory of the innocent people who died that awfull day. It's wrong, it's sick. It doesn't help anyone, it doesn't accomplish anything. You can fight against what you think is wrong in the world, I encourage you to do so, as long as it is in an honest way. But fueling this 9/11 conspiracy nonsense is extremely damaging to democracy and to the security of your nation and mine.
 
Bomb sniffing dogs were removed, I think, two weeks prior to sept 11. Look it up. There are many possible ways to bring in the equipments. Like loading up the van and driving into the basement/parking lot of the WTC one by one several times in a week and hiding the equipments in the private section of the building. There are so many different possible ways.

I remember reading bunch of sources in the public press reports relating to the numerous evacuations and power shut downs before the attack to place. I will gather them and post as soon as I find them.

If the NWO is so powerful and insidious why are you posting on the Internet instead of heading for some remote backwoods?

Here, let me give you a refresher on how scientific process works:
* There is a theory for the cause of the collapse of the WTC towers that has received provisional agreement by the majority
* You have an alternative idea
* For your alternative idea to be considered you must
* form a falsifiable hypothesis
* test this hypothesis
* provide the results for peer review
* and show why the currently accepted theory is in error

The burden of proof is on you. Put forth your arguements in a scientific and logically valid manner or go away.

Good grief, I really expected after going on vacation for 10+ days for this thread to have fallen off the first page.
 
Yes, power went out for 30 hours straight during a weekend prior to sept 11. DURING A WEEKEND PRIOR TO SEPT 11. NOT WEEKS, MONTHS, YEAR, BUT ONE WEEKEND BEFOREHAND. [Slaps]Don't be stupid.[/slaps]

...so ?

30 hours sounds like a reasonable time for placing explosives inside three buildings depending how many people were involved.

Sounds like ? Who cares what it SOUNDS like ?

Oh. So you do know how controlled demolition works, yet you don't think WTC buidlings were brought down with explosives, not even a slightest bit of suspicions crossing your mind? Heh, that's crazy...or just denial.

Perhaps you should listen to people with experience or expertise in that field, instead of believing your X-files fantasies.
 
geggy,

A while back, when you promised us a debate, I said this:

A good start would be a synopsis of how it all fits together. A timeline would be nice. When did the government decide to orchestrate the attack, as you assert they did? If the 19 hijackers weren't really involved, what role did they play in the conspiracy? How was WTC 7 demolished, if it was sturdy enough to survive major damage and fire? What difference does it make whether it was demolished or fell on its own?

You won't convince anyone by mere VOLUME of information, whether real or imaginary. Remember, we need an unbroken chain of reasoning, from beginning to end, that explains all of your claims. We will even allow you to include unnecessary entities (in violation of Occam's razor) just as long as there is evidence that they actually exist, or are at least plausible. If you can't do that, then there's no reason to take the claims seriously.

Since that time, you have offered this:

Unless the planes hit the center of the towers, the buildings would have toppled instead of falling straight down, unless they were demolished.

The buildings fell at nearly the rate of free-fall, which can only happen in a demolition.

The concrete was pulverized.

Explosive charges shot out of the buildings

There was molten metal found in the rubble

People are afraid of questioning Bush because they would be labeled unpatriotic, that is why no one has stepped forward with the truth

Many people have called 911 a PSYOP. A PsYOP would confuse people and make them unable to explain or challenge it.

"A squib is not an electric match, even though the terms are used interchangeably by the uninitiated. It is a small explosive device which has a wide range of uses generating mechanical forces as well as pyrotechnic uses. A squib can range in size from a small cap only millimeters in diameter to ones which can be 15 millimetres in diameter. The squib being an explosive device, releases a lot of energy, and can be used for shattering, triggering, propelling and cutting a wide range of pyrotechnic and non-pyrotechnic materials."

A woman stood in an impact hole, and yet her hair didn't melt.

Where was Bush on the morning of 9/11?

WTC's power was shut down for thirty hours on the weekend prior to 9/11.

Thirty hours is enough time to wire the three WTC buildings with explosives.

Bomb-sniffing dogs may have been removed from the building before this time.


Here's the problem. Even if we accept that everything on this list is true (and it most certainly is not), it still doesn't paint a coherent picture. Especially since some of these arguments aren't even arguments, but rhetorical questions. Others are claims made by persons unknown. Still others could be called arguments, but supporting what? What is the overall premise? What is the conclusion? Why are you wasting our time?

Others have urged you to go back and read the entire thread. I don't think you're ready for this yet. A course in basic logic would be an necessary first step, and would do you wonders. Then, after you have critically examined the evidence, we can begin having an honest debate.
 
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But I did lay out bunch of evidence but it hasn't gotten through your head....I made it clear why I thought all three buildings were brought down with explosives and I haven't yet been convinced by most of the posters' speculations...

Here are the evidence, make sure you look through completely and use common sense:

Timeline of WTC collapsing:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&investigations:_a_detailed_look=wtcinvestigation

More evidence not relating to the collapsing of WTC...

Warnings before 9/11 timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/
timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=warnings

War games excercise/NORAD standdown timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

Complete 9/11 timelines:

cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Always remember, cover up is a conspiracy...
 
But I did lay out bunch of evidence but it hasn't gotten through your head....I made it clear why I thought all three buildings were brought down with explosives and I haven't yet been convinced by most of the posters' speculations...

Here are the evidence, make sure you look through completely and use common sense:

Timeline of WTC collapsing:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&investigations:_a_detailed_look=wtcinvestigation

More evidence not relating to the collapsing of WTC...

Warnings before 9/11 timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/
timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=warnings

War games excercise/NORAD standdown timeline:

cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises

Complete 9/11 timelines:

cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Always remember, cover up is a conspiracy...

Common sense says, never use one source for information.

And know your sources well.

So far, seems that, while their objectives look good (at a glance), their methodology is undoubtably flawed. Why, exactly, do they need over $43,000? That's a hell of a lot of money. And why are they focused on 9/11, when they're claiming to be there to prevent the fragmentation of the historical record overall?

It's a ruse, I'd say. Judging from the overall quality of the site, and, particularly, the lack of quality of their articles and research, I'd say it's bunk.

So... got any GOOD sources of information?
 
Here are the evidence, make sure you look through completely and use common sense:

Timeline of WTC collapsing:

http://cooperativeresearch.org/time...estigations:_a_detailed_look=wtcinvestigation
That's not evidence - it's dozens of screens tall, just to get up to 1994, with lots more after that. Is there something there you want to point out specifically?

Pretty much the same here. Point to something specifically.

All these are the same kind of thing!

What is your point? You can't have a discussion by simply giving someone the address of the Library of Congress!

Is there any piece of evidence that you would actually care to state explicitly and defend?
 
Heh you've got to be kidding me. Either you didn't look thoroughly at the links I've just provided or you're just...dumb...
 
Heh you've got to be kidding me. Either you didn't look thoroughly at the links I've just provided or you're just...dumb...

So... let me get this straight.

You came all the way over here, expecting that people would be as gullible as you... and now you're dissapointed ? Your only defense, now, is to call people idiots because they disagree with your interpretation of the "evidence" ?
 
So... let me get this straight.

You came all the way over here, expecting that people would be as gullible as you... and now you're dissapointed ? Your only defense, now, is to call people idiots because they disagree with your interpretation of the "evidence" ?

What you are seeing is a conspriacy nutter discovering that he is not as clever or intelligent as he thinks he is, and so he retreats into the warm glow of denial and insults.

Conspiracy Theories are the opium of the self-impressed.
 
Here are the evidence, make sure you look through completely and use common sense:

So... your concept of intelligent debate is to dig up a bunch of disjointed factoids and handing it over to ME to construct YOUR argument?

Are you sure you trust me to do this for you? I might not come up with the most persuasive argument from your perspective.
 
IHere is a full length of W.'s visit to Booker Elementary School on the morning of sept 11. He just sat there with his poker face after being told that America was under attack...

Honestly, what did you expect him to do? Run around and scream like a little girl? Panic? Dive on the floor and let Secret Service and small children pile on top of him? There was little he could do from his executive position, he was in a secure area (leaving the area off of schdule would have put him at greater risk). He's not the first President to have an attack on America while in office, he's being taped for news broadcast and is in front of children. The event will end shortly. This is a big pile of nothing.

Tell you what, tell me what Clinton was doing and how he reacted to the 93 WTC bombing and the OK bombing.
 
Heh you've got to be kidding me. Either you didn't look thoroughly at the links I've just provided or you're just...dumb...
To thoroughly read all the links you provided in that post would take weeks. The part I did read is just a timeline of events - I didn't yet see anything that would indicate that something other than the standard model had happened.

What specifically in those links do you think points to a conspiracy? Help us out here. Be specific.
 
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