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Loose Change

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I found the video interesting, if not particularly well-researched. Most of the 'facts' they've presented I've heard before or heard reasonable explanations of.

The points I'm still curious about:

1) The apparent landing and evacuation of Flight 93 in Cleveland, as reported by WCPO here in Cincinnati the morning of 9/11. It's a curious glitch, and I've never heard anyone address it. (In fact, the general events in Cleveland that morning were most unusual - and largely unexplained)

2) The issue of cell phone usage on Flight 93. I assume that a plane on a suicide descent wouldn't be cruising at 32,000 feet, but it does seem as if a disproportionately large number of cell phones were working - and in a rather vague coverage area? Also, I do think that Mark (Bright?)'s identifying himself to his own mother by his full name to be very strange. Still - people are strange, aren't they?

3) What's the truth about the alleged Osama bin Laden confession tape? Is there anything to the handedness issue, the ring, etc? I can't seem to find much skeptical discussion on this particular issue. Granted, I still think terrorists were responsible for 9/11, but could bin Laden be just a convenient scapegoat?

Personally, I'm trying to remain skeptical on the whole issue. I don't trust any Bush as far as I could throw them, and I certainly think that any fundie Christian with money and power ought to be shot anyway; but to suggest that Bush could have orchestrated something to THIS scale is ludicrous.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past certain people to take advantage of the situation and use this terrorist attack as an excuse to further personal agendas.... I would... :D

...God, every time I see those planes hit the Towers I still get ill inside.
 
zaayrdragon said:
...God, every time I see those planes hit the Towers I still get ill inside.
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That's the main reason this whole subject makes me so angry. These conspiracy nuts are taking advantage of that feeling and polluting people's minds for a few cheap jollies. Some of their accusations fall on the very rescue workers who rushed into the buildings that day or the janitors lives who were snuffed out under all that rubble. I just can't sit by and let the memory of that day become tarnished. What government and media have done with that day is sin enough. Of all the things our culture needs to be sober and real about, 9/11 should be first.

This is the worst kind of credulous thinking.
 
manny said:
It's also worth noting that among the passengers and crew who would have been killed or otherwise disappeared to "complete" any fictious story about AA flt 77 doing something other than crashing into the Pentagon was Barbara Olson, the wife of Solicitor General Theodore Olson. Ted argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court. So in order to believe this theory one must suppose that one of the people most responsible for putting the President in office (and a long-time Republican fix-it guy in any event) either a) was left out of the loop on the conspiracy or b) desired to kill his wife, an unbelievably popular political commentator in her own right or c) Barbara Olson is alive and in perma-hiding.
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No way. Clearly she knew too much! Christ this crap is easy. No wonder the intellectually lazy are so attracted to it.
 
manny said:
It's also worth noting that among the passengers and crew who would have been killed or otherwise disappeared to "complete" any fictious story about AA flt 77 doing something other than crashing into the Pentagon was Barbara Olson, the wife of Solicitor General Theodore Olson. Ted argued Bush v. Gore before the Supreme Court. So in order to believe this theory one must suppose that one of the people most responsible for putting the President in office (and a long-time Republican fix-it guy in any event) either a) was left out of the loop on the conspiracy or b) desired to kill his wife, an unbelievably popular political commentator in her own right or c) Barbara Olson is alive and in perma-hiding.
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Now you're starting to freak me out, man. :scared:
 
In addition to being the product of severely confused people, it's not very engaging a documentary. I almost prefer Michael Moore.
 
I've just watched an excellent series called Inside 9/11 on the NatGeo channel here in Australia. What happened on that infamous date still affects me deeply.

To say that the event was planned and executed by anyone but a tiny enclave of disaffected psychopaths using religion as a shield defies rationality.

2973 people lost their lives because of the actions if these psychopaths.

As Bin Laden was quoted as saying at the end of the documentaries: We love death. the Americans love life. That is the difference between us.

I believe he was wrong on both counts. He would have made a good propagandist in Nazi Germany.

There is an answer to this horrible, terrifying stand-off, but I'm afraid that we in the West would never countenance it.

So the carnage will continue indefinitely.

M.
 
Thanks for those links. I had figured we weren't being shown anything in that film that would allow an objective conclusion.
I must say however, that the video of Bin Laden doesn't look like him to me either. I thought that immediately. This doesn't mean I think it's all a conspiracy though, Saddam had doubles didn't he? If I was in that position I'd try to find several.
 
Huntsman said:
Control, oddly enough.

Think about, lightning was much "scarier" before we understood what caused it. It still has the exact same properties, but because we know the causes, it loses some of its ability to cause fear.

Same with other pehenomena. The "conspiracy" angle removes the accidental/random/unpredictable elements from the event (the buildings didn't fall unforeseen, they were intended to fall!). So that's one aspect, I think.
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Rather like how people invented gods that controlled thunder and lightning -- gods are essentially just very powerful people, and even a capricious and cruel person is at least familiar, and therefore comfortable.
 
thank you very much for sharing this, I spent 1 hour and 20 minutes watching this whole video, it made me feel many different ways, it made me feel angry at the american goverment for a thing such as this to happen. But is also mad me feel compelled to show this to other people, the government has to lie and cover up everything.

At least there are some smart people in the world.
 
blue_eastcoast said:
thank you very much for sharing this, I spent 1 hour and 20 minutes watching this whole video, it made me feel many different ways, it made me feel angry at the american goverment for a thing such as this to happen. But is also mad me feel compelled to show this to other people, the government has to lie and cover up everything.

At least there are some smart people in the world.
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Ummm... You might want to read through this thread...
 
Whilst I don't believe there is a conspiracy there are some things about the Pentagon attack that seem odd.CCTV showed no plane approaching,the few frames that get shown over and again at least.CCTV film was taken from the nearby hotel and never returned nor disclosed,the damage seems to be from the inside out,yet there's a hole in the front wall,with little damage to the grass.
The terrorists leaving neat little clues in the cars found at whichever airport it was-Denver?-including flight manuals!! The passport found a few blocks away from the Twin Towers site intact enough to identify Mohammed Atta.Lastly havent some of the named terrorists supposedly on the flight been proved to be alive?
Ok so this is from memory and not evidence,and as stated I dont believe in conspiracies.
 
There are, on the surface, oddities in any situation. What I think is happening here, is the data we're receiving is obviously filtered. Not because of some conspiracy or something, but from the usual, general incompetence of the people responsible. Let's be frank - most people are mind-numbingly stupid. This includes our government. My guess is the videotapes showing the plane smashing into the Pentagon are sitting in someone's car, forgotten, or on the back of a desk under a large stack of paperwork; or erased, purely by stupid accident. The 'suspected terrorists' are all listed off of old lists of possible suspects, probably - most of them sorely out-of-date, and probably built on hearsay and speculation that is unfounded at best. The people who compiled those lists - also idiots, most likely.

The evidence that seems odd - like the hole seemingly blown from inside out - we ought to consider that we aren't experts in these fields, and haven't personally seen the damage. We've seen pictures and had other people tell us what we're seeing - usually conspiracy theorists, basically.

As for oddball things, like a terrorist's passport blowing down the street or flight manuals in cars... Sure, it's odd. But I would expect a lot of material would be left behind in the cars of these suicide bombers for some very simple reasons. First, probably brushing up at the last minute in the cars. Second, not wanting to be questioned by security (weren't most of these guys non-Citizens? A bunch of Middle-Easterners carrying flight manuals would have looked a bit suspicious). Third - it's not like they'll miss the manuals - they're planning on dying, after all.

The passport does sound unfailingly suspicious to me, though - and I wouldn't put it past our government to plant small bits of evidence to reinforce our anti-Afghanistan feelings and support all-out war. But at the same time, weirder things have happened. It's just 'one of those things'.

Without more info, it's really foolish of us to start crying 'conspiracy'.

Still, I'd like to know more about the cell phone usage on Flight 93...
 
I doubt "Let's Roll" happened actually.Sounds to American gung ho for my liking.When these terrorists apparently cut the throat of a air hostess on the Twin Tower flights,I can't see a few "jocks" being much of a problem.It's not like the terrorists were expecting an easy job.
While I accept(and I too would also)they wanted to say goodbye to their families,why did no-one on the other flights make calls? Why did the terrorists allow them to make calls,alerting people to their plans?
 
Azrael 5 said:
I doubt "Let's Roll" happened actually.Sounds to American gung ho for my liking.When these terrorists apparently cut the throat of a air hostess on the Twin Tower flights,I can't see a few "jocks" being much of a problem.It's not like the terrorists were expecting an easy job.
While I accept(and I too would also)they wanted to say goodbye to their families,why did no-one on the other flights make calls? Why did the terrorists allow them to make calls,alerting people to their plans?
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People on the other flights did make calls, but to that point, no one knew that the planes were to be used as weapons.

As for the terrorists allowing them, do you think four guys with knives can control every action on the plane?

But do feel free to join the conspiracy nutters and s*** on the memory of those who had a chance to fight back.
 
zaayrdragon said:
TThe passport does sound unfailingly suspicious to me, though - and I wouldn't put it past our government to plant small bits of evidence to reinforce our anti-Afghanistan feelings and support all-out war. But at the same time, weirder things have happened. It's just 'one of those things'.
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Truth is, the passport was never a big piece of evidence. It get attention far out of porportion to its value simply because all the Ct'ers are jumping up and down and pointing at it while screaming "Not possible! Not POSSIBLE! ITS A PLANT!!!". Looking at the reports from the gov't the passport is scarcely mentioned, and the FBI seemed to think little of it as evidence of who the hijackers were.
 
It is interesting to see how wrong your intuition can be about something like this. Looking at the Pentagon pictures Luke posted, I must admit I do find it hard to believe there is an aircraft in there.
I find myself thinking- well if that's an engine in the red box, where is the wing it should be attached to? Surely there ought to be at least part of the wing visible outside the building?
I also would expect, given the density of tourists in Washington DC and the ubiquity of cameras, to see at least one video of the impact actually happening. Is it this, compared with the many videos of the WTT, that permits us to ignore the eye witness testimony of those who actually saw the aircraft?

Like many of those who have misinterpreted the NASA lunar photos, I am simply unable to assess the scale and nature of the damage. How big are those windows in the Pentagon? What width are the ground floor gaps between pillars in the (foam covered) photo? Could a plane get through there? (Or whatever is left of a plane hitting a solid building at that speed?)
The fact that this building is vastly tougher than we would expect makes the photos seem even odder. It is not the damage that surprises, but the comparative lack of it.

I note on the USA Today animation, the aircraft as it approaches the building seems much wider than the hole in the photo. It would be interesting to see an accurate superimposition of a 757 on the photo.

It's interesting. Something dreadful happens. Lots of people see it happen. Yet when one person asks if it's a government conspiracy, we all start to doubt . If only the public were as sceptical of half of the real bs out there.
 
Ten or twelve years ago I worked with a guy who was a John Birch Society member. He lent me a conspiracy theory video called Waco: The Big Lie (which you can read about here). It was so slipshod and full of specious arguments that I remember feeling distinctly embarassed for my coworker. That a grown man could believe this sort of hogwash was a disturbing revelation to me.
 
Angus McPresley said:
Ten or twelve years ago I worked with a guy who was a John Birch Society member. He lent me a conspiracy theory video called Waco: The Big Lie (which you can read about here). It was so slipshod and full of specious arguments that I remember feeling distinctly embarassed for my coworker. That a grown man could believe this sort of hogwash was a disturbing revelation to me.
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When I was 15, I went to a John Birch Society camp. Those people all need years of psychotherapy. And medicine. Lots of medicine.
 
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