Loose Change - Part IV

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T.A.M. said:
I have a question. If a general, or someone else, leaves a "top secret" document open on a computer within a secure facility, and you are a low E5 fixing a computer, and you happen upon this document,

(a) are you allowed to read through the document (Chavez admits he did)?
(b) Should you then broadcast what was in the document on public radio (as Chavez did on AJs show)?

I'm just asking questions.

TAM
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What document's this? Just asking questions (but actually an answer would be appreciated in this case :D )
 
T.A.M. said:
I have a question. If a general, or someone else, leaves a "top secret" document open on a computer within a secure facility, and you are a low E5 fixing a computer, and you happen upon this document,

(a) are you allowed to read through the document (Chavez admits he did)?
(b) Should you then broadcast what was in the document on public radio (as Chavez did on AJs show)?

I'm just asking questions.

TAM
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T.A.M., I'm not a soldier but as a Government worker I get yearly security briefings as do military personnel.

If a general or high-ranking Officer EVER left a Classified document unprotected where any E5 could read it, they would be in a world of trouble. One thing that gets drummed into us constantly is to NEVER let Classified material out of our sight even for a minute, if you have to use the bathroom, you're supposed to lock it up or leave it with someone who has the necessary Security Clearance. Now a general might (heck, any of us might) ignore that, but with an unsecure office and an E5 either in there or arriving? I am skeptical. and if it was on the computer, well, we're told to lock our machines anytime before we leave the office, even if for 4-5 minutes, and I would think a General would do the same.

As for the E5 reading the document, his "by-the-book" course of action would be to report the violation to the Security Officer, but I'll give Chavez the benefit of the doubt here and note that not many E5's are going to risk their necks reporting a boo-boo by a General. That said, reading it was definitely an offense and if caught, he could have been in as much trouble (or even more) than the Officer.

Upshot; Not impossible, but given the stringent warnings all Military and DoD civilians get, the idea that a General Officer would leave a Top Secret document open where anybody could read it--well, I am skeptical.

IMHO as always.
 
Just to chime in, I work on computers for the military, including classified systems (Secret level, not TS or SCI). I agree with Hutch's comments.

However, just to add to it, even if, through some oversight or whatever, an E-5 found these documents (and was not authorized to view them), talking about them still would be considered a violation of standing orders. Just as an additional note, if it was a computer with a Top Secret document on it, them it was, de facto, in a secure area. Which means this E-5 computer tech would have to have a Top Secret level clearance himself to even work on the systems or be in the room.

Just as an example, our Secret level areas were locked, and you could not eneter unless you had clearance. Every Army system outside this area (including the Commanding General of the 90th Reserve Commmand, that covers about five states) had these large, red stickers clearly stating "this system will not be used to process classified material."

Basically, the story is fishy on many levels, and sounds more like a made-for-TV movie than reality.
 
Hutch said:
If a general or high-ranking Officer EVER left a Classified document unprotected where any E5 could read it, they would be in a world of trouble. One thing that gets drummed into us constantly is to NEVER let Classified material out of our sight even for a minute, if you have to use the bathroom, you're supposed to lock it up or leave it with someone who has the necessary Security Clearance. Now a general might (heck, any of us might) ignore that, but with an unsecure office and an E5 either in there or arriving? I am skeptical. and if it was on the computer, well, we're told to lock our machines anytime before we leave the office, even if for 4-5 minutes, and I would think a General would do the same.
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Maybe/hopefully security has improved since then, but remember the Wing Commander who left the 1991 Gulf War plans on a laptop, in the boot of his unoccupied car; the laptop got nicked :eek: See story below (from 26/6/91 issue of the Times):

THE theft of the ``Crown Jewels'' from the boot of Wing Commander David Farquhar's car gave allied commanders the worst scare of the Gulf war.

For three weeks they had no idea whether the deception plan devised by General Norman Schwarzkopf...was in the hands of the Iraqis.

Fortunately for the allies, the theft of the lap-top computer containing the secret plan was carried out by an opportunist thief, known only as Andrew, who posted it back to the defence ministry with a message suggesting that the man responsible for the loss should be hanged.
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He was discussing this with AJ on his radio show.

The top secret document was a folder that a "general" or someone had left open on the desk. Whilst working on the computers, our noble Chavez decided to sit down and read through it.

Go listen to AJs show on it, and here it for yourself.

He is either making it up, or will be in extremely deep shaite if it gets out to the military.

TAM
 
T.A.M. said:
He was discussing this with AJ on his radio show.

The top secret document was a folder that a "general" or someone had left open on the desk. Whilst working on the computers, our noble Chavez decided to sit down and read through it.

Go listen to AJs show on it, and here it for yourself.

He is either making it up, or will be in extremely deep shaite if it gets out to the military.

TAM
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Hmmm.

More plausible, but still unlikely. To work on computers in the military, you must have at least a Secret level clearance (it's a job requirement for the MOS feild). Which means our enterprising young tech must have had at least one securoty breifing (they're required periodically to maintain clearance) and thus would have known what he was supposed to do regarding secure documents.

Thus, he has admitted to violating a direct (standing) order, violating his security clearance, overlooking a security violation (not sure what the official term for this would be), and now, since he's talking about it, violation of his security agreement and, possibly, treason (assuming all this is true). And he can't even plead ignorance...if his story is true, he knows (or should have known) the procedures for secure documents.

However, again, I find it highly unlikely that a person without a Top Secret clearance would be allowed to work in an area where TS documents were stored, without being granted that same clearance level. Does Chavez claim he had a TS clearance?
 
Huntsman said:
Hmmm.

More plausible, but still unlikely. To work on computers in the military, you must have at least a Secret level clearance (it's a job requirement for the MOS feild). Which means our enterprising young tech must have had at least one securoty breifing (they're required periodically to maintain clearance) and thus would have known what he was supposed to do regarding secure documents.

Thus, he has admitted to violating a direct (standing) order, violating his security clearance, overlooking a security violation (not sure what the official term for this would be), and now, since he's talking about it, violation of his security agreement and, possibly, treason (assuming all this is true). And he can't even plead ignorance...if his story is true, he knows (or should have known) the procedures for secure documents.

However, again, I find it highly unlikely that a person without a Top Secret clearance would be allowed to work in an area where TS documents were stored, without being granted that same clearance level. Does Chavez claim he had a TS clearance?
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So if he's not arrested and charged in a military court, either:
1. his claims are bunk
2. They want us to believe his claims are bunk

Incidentally, assuming he is lying, is he actually breaking any laws, military or civil?
 
If he's lying? Possibly slander agains the general he's accusing of leaving a document out, if he names names.

Other than that, I don't think so, but we're getting outside my lane with the legal questions. I only know the ones about secure documents because I do computer work for the military and have sat through the briefings :)
 
In the AJ broadcast he claimed to have the proper clearance to be where he says he was.

Not only did he accuse a general of leaving a TS doc out (he doesnt name the general, of course), but he also accuses a colonol, who he says was in charge of some portion of the air force, of claiming there was a "Stand Down" order given on 9/11. Now since all of the USG deny this, he is accusing the entire administration of purgery when they gave testimony to the commission.

TAM
 
Interesting post on the screwloosechange forum.

Deksta said:
Here's a good one about them ! When I registered with Loose Change I used a new and sepearte Yahoo email address for the single purpose of registration only. No one else knows the email address and I have never used it for anything else. Whilst I was at LC I had my address hidden so only the admin and mods could see it. Suddenly the email address has been bombed with loads of porn spam. Just shows what the mods and admin are really like over there. Anyhow, I contacted Yahoo and explained to them about the setting up of the address and that it was used for one purpose only and they have closed it now. The guy who contacted me said they are had similar complaints and that LC had been mentioned in those complaints ! So looks like one of them at least is a porn-freak who gets ex-members email addresses signed up for dialy porn. I also emailed one of the sites and they replied saying that the IP address of the person who signed me up was logged and will notify the ISP ! Just shows what a complete bunch of wankers they really are over there. I work for a media business and will make sure that this goes to print to warn peoplke of what they are really doing.
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Wow, I'm truly, truly :shocked:
This has chucksheens fingerprints all over it. We know that he: a) installed browser hijacking viruses at a Bestbuy(?), redirecting those computers to universalseed and b) is a hit whore for universalseed(or whatever the hell it's called now), even editing users posts to link to it. I'm also thinking that this may be the only semblance of a job he has(somebody has the create those porn spam viruses)..
 
Originally Posted by Deksta
Here's a good one about them ! When I registered with Loose Change I used a new and sepearte Yahoo email address for the single purpose of registration only. No one else knows the email address and I have never used it for anything else. Whilst I was at LC I had my address hidden so only the admin and mods could see it. Suddenly the email address has been bombed with loads of porn spam. Just shows what the mods and admin are really like over there. Anyhow, I contacted Yahoo and explained to them about the setting up of the address and that it was used for one purpose only and they have closed it now. The guy who contacted me said they are had similar complaints and that LC had been mentioned in those complaints ! So looks like one of them at least is a porn-freak who gets ex-members email addresses signed up for dialy porn. I also emailed one of the sites and they replied saying that the IP address of the person who signed me up was logged and will notify the ISP ! Just shows what a complete bunch of wankers they really are over there. I work for a media business and will make sure that this goes to print to warn peoplke of what they are really doing.
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This is definitely a story of which I want to hear more.
 
Just my US$0.02 on the secrecy thing...

My ex-father-in-law was a major in the Air Force, with Secret clearance. One day his travels took him to five different locations within NORAD. He was promptly called into the CO's office and asked to explain why he was in each of these locations. It turned out that there was an above-top-secret project which used all five of those locations. Just coincidentally, he visited each of them.

The moral of the story is, I suppose, that both top-secret materials AND the individuals who access them are monitored quite closely indeed. I have a hard time believing Chavez's story.
 
Why is this thread not a "sticky"-one and what/who
makes it a sticky thread?
 
A delightful respite...

posted by mickky in the 9/11 editorials thread:

"The Hopeless Stupidity of 9/11 Conspiracies" by Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter.
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