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Loose Change - Part IV

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Kent1 said:
Loose Change is lambasted for its use of (AFP) as a source.

American Free Press of course known for its anti-semitism and Holocaust denial. Page 106 is devoted to this.
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They must have read my paper. ;-) Still waiting for Jones and Ryan to respond on that. Scholarly standards and all.
 
Gravy you guy's is correct! Glass,,,, I argued this on ATS awhile back. Atleast as an option!
Why, I don't know?
 
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JohnM307 said:
In fact, if someone were to ask me what kind of evidence would convince me of the official story, I would demand the following as a bare minimum:

1) Evidence that the 9/11 Commission was formed at most a month after 9/11, and initially allocated at least one hundred million dollars.
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What was there to investigate, the case is clear. Or mayby since the attacs were a failure to protect the public "they" didn't want too many revelations on the incompetence of the administration given the prior warnings and stuff.

2) Evidence that NORAD got fighter jets up near the hijacked planes within twenty minutes of the first sign of something going wrong for each plane. And after the first plane hit the North Tower, the fighter jets did everything possible short of shooting down the hijacked planes, to prevent them from hitting their targets. (Notice that I didn't require actual shooting down. I understand a strong reluctance.)
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Well have you heard the conversations where they consider scrambling fighters that go like "uuh I don't know... everybody just lef the room" or something like that. Mayby your NORAD wasn't quite prepared for the situation. Is it a particularly common in America to over estimate the capabilities of your super douder military? Or is it only limited to the administration and conspiracy theorists?
My quote: "Religious zealots who enjoyed lap-dancing and drinking and other non-Islamic activities. Religious zealots who visited and participated in Las Vegas."

Your answer: "Yes."

There's a clue there. Were they really suicidal religious zealots?
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Is the lapdancing even true? And what kind of behaviour would you expect from nuts who fly planes into buildings? Suicide bombers can even dress as women as some have done in Iraq. Or they could have gone to bars to avert attention. They were on a mission you know.


Do you now believe the official story or do I have contact the ministry of love?;-)
 
I'll quote the whole passage...
pg 41
According to Alan Pense, professor emeritus of metallurgical engineering at Lehigh University, "The photographs shown to support melting steel are, to me unconvincing...or show matericals that appear to me to be other than steel. One of these photos appears to me to be mostly of glass with unmelted steel rods in it. Glass melts at much lower temperatures than steel.
 
Kent1 said:
The melting point of Jet fuel???
Oh classic! Nothing but the facts!!!!
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Technically, the "melting point" of Jet-A is -40 degrees C (-40 degrees being the solid-liquid transition point). I believe that is somewhat lower than steel... :p

-Andrew
 
gumboot said:
Technically, the "melting point" of Jet-A is -40 degrees C (-40 degrees being the solid-liquid transition point). I believe that is somewhat lower than steel... :p

-Andrew
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That is what I thought when I read it. Well, technically he is correct...
 
Hey Gravy, gotta give " Les Than " props for paying up! You should have made him drink it w/ya! Then all betttts would be off. Tape that if you could. I suspect a babbling brook of logical fallacies! Heck, I'd pay to see that!
" Les Than Gone Wild "!!

DT
 
Kent1 said:
Judy (and Michael Zebuhr the deceased truth member) were going against the "9/11 scholars" by saying that it glows in daylight.
They are having some internal debate right now over the color of the aluminum and how important it is. This goes back to the molten metal flowing from the top of the towers debate.
In section 1 of Jones paper
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
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Thanks for that, Kent. I wasn't expecting a dissenting view from Judy, especially against the work of the god of CT, Steven Jones. These days, no CT interview is complete without the words "Professor Steven Jones, of BYU, says....".

Perhaps she has read this. The author, Mark* Ferran rips into Jones.

http://www.debunking911.com/ironburns.htm

*Another Mark! Dylan's head must be spinning.
 
Brainache said:
Gravy I have nothing but admiration for you and your friends confronting a group of what sound like complete loonies to me.
I wish I could join you, but I live in Australia.
I hope you watch your step around those people, some of them sound like they could get a bit dangerous.
All the best.
Andy.
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Ah ha!

Nowra, here.
 
Obviousman said:
That's close to my own personal theory.

I haven't researched it a great deal, so feel free to point out the flaws.

I don't think the Pentagon was the original target; I think it was the White House.

As people have said, using the FMS to fly you to your target is easy. Programming it with a correct descent rate to intercept your target is more difficult. I think Hanjour found himself too high to hit the White House, having not started a descent early enough and maybe being unwilling to push a higher rate of descent. Making a snap 'D' he turned to make another run on it.

This is where I'm having a problem with my 'pet' theory: if Hanjour was in the left seat (normal pilot position), I would expect him to make a LEFT turn as he overflew Ronald Reagan Airport, in order to acquire / keep the target visual. Instead he made a right turn.

It is possible that the decision was made at this point to try for the Pentagon, which would have been clearly visible. Perhaps he was in the right seat - we can never be sure.

As was pointed out, hitting anything at all would have been considered a success. The aircraft had been hijacked, and if they simply crashed it, killing all on board, that would have been a success. Crashing into a populous area, killing people on the ground, would have been better. Hitting a recognised structure would have been marvellous.

The descending turn set them up for an approach to the Pentagon. Hand flying the aircraft, he aims for the Pentagon. Due to the high speed of the aircraft, Hanjour realises shortly before impact that he is going to undershoot the target. He flattens the approach..... and the rest is history.
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Well, based on what people have said and the released flight path details... there goes that theory!

I'll just sit here in the back, and be werry, werry quiet.
:D
 
Kent1 said:
Why am I not shocked....

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9586&st=0

Do You Support Israel's Right To Exist?, or should they pack up thei tents and go

Do you support Israel's right to exist?
Yes [ 16 ] [28.07%]
No [ 41 ] [71.93%]
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I got this in an email recently. It's a quote from Dennis Miller:

A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it,
I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need.

Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians.
It's a made up word.

Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient
but is really a modern invention

Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war,
Gaza was owned by Egypt , the West Bank was owned by Jordan , and there were no "Palestinians."

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing
oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.

Instead, let's call them what they are:
"Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life
And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In
The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.
They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David
but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other
Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course --
that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it --
for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people
away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth,
and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . you know
that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Middle east.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field,
and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
And now these same folks swear that, if Israel gives them
half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals..

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the Numbers.
Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it
Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace,
the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that, with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.
After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful.

Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day), start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan .
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gumboot said:
Technically, the "melting point" of Jet-A is -40 degrees C (-40 degrees being the solid-liquid transition point). I believe that is somewhat lower than steel... :p

-Andrew
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Technically -40 degrees C is the maximum freeze point of JetA (-47 for JetA-1). ASTM has an odd definition for freeze point on this, they use the first appearance of wax crystals to determine the freeze point. I've taken JetA-1 down to -60 and it is still somewhat fluid. Most of the fuel I test is about 1-5 degC below the maximum temperature. [/netpick]
 
The problem I see is that his "removing core columns" vs fire is based on his assumption that the fire could not have weakened the steel; which has already been debunked. As soon as you allow for that the core can fail, as animated, without the use of demo charges.
 
Obviousman said:
This was posted on the "pancake theory" thread.

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=10384

As a non-engineer, and having no reason to doubt what the person says their credentials are, we have a dissenting view.

Can people with the appropriate qualifications comment?
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He says he used Pro Engineer to create them, but makes no mention of what finite element analysis software he used to analyse the collapse, so I'm not entirely sure how he simulated it. But on the other hand it appears to show that the floors collapsed in a pancake stylee, except that the top section panckaes first, and then the bottom. Is he suggesting it as evidence for or against the official story? I'm not entirely sure.
 
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