Loose Change - Part IV

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Quote from my friend, and you are my friend, Bumgoot

As I understand it, the failure mechanism was the collapse of the exterior columns in the impact zone, not the floors. I've always understood the "pancaking" to refer to what happened AFTER collapse started - that is when the lower floors crashed down on each other.

However, from my own layman's observations, I feel the collapse, at least in the North Tower, was more about the disintegration of the exterior columns.

Certainly, from day one, I have described the collapse of WTC1 as looking like a banana being peeled. Hence my amusement at claims of it coming down "in its own footprint" like a "textbook controlled demolition". Massive sections of the exterior columns - 5, 10, 20 floors high - peeled away from the structure.
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But... but... but... You've forgotten about the concrete core!

http://concretecore.741.com/

-) (in the days before fancier emoticons, that was considered to be "tongue in cheek")

(for you younger geeks with no whimsy in your soul, the dash (-) is supposed to be the tongue and the right paren (")") the bulging cheek)

Fancier emoticon: :p
 
gumboot said:
Just read back a bit and missed a conversation on the pancaking and lack thereof.

As I understand it, the failure mechanism was the collapse of the exterior columns in the impact zone, not the floors. I've always understood the "pancaking" to refer to what happened AFTER collapse started - that is when the lower floors crashed down on each other.

However, from my own layman's observations, I feel the collapse, at least in the North Tower, was more about the disintegration of the exterior columns.

Certainly, from day one, I have described the collapse of WTC1 as looking like a banana being peeled. Hence my amusement at claims of it coming down "in its own footprint" like a "textbook controlled demolition". Massive sections of the exterior columns - 5, 10, 20 floors high - peeled away from the structure.

I am a bit firmer about this scenario, given the core remained standing for some time.
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Have I missed something after all this time?

My hypothesis:

Due to the inward bowing at the impact zone, the collapse debris was contained almost exclusively inside the boundaries of the structure created by the exterior columns.

As they fell they "peeled" the exterior columns (which acted like a skin due to their componant structure of multiple floors and columns together in sections) away from the building.

Essentially you are left with a "naked" structure - the core and floors intact, with no exterior walls.

Except, of course, that's not going to happen. With nothing holding up the outer edges of the floors, and with the debris from above crashing down, the lower floors were shredded from the core one after the other, crashing down upon each other.

This left a severly damaged core standing on its own. Of course, it could not possibly remain standing like that, and within seconds it too collapses.

Once the floors started their "stacking" down the core, I can see this progression rapidly accelerating ahead of the "peeling" of the exterior columns - afterall the only thing keeping the floors up is the bolted points along the core and exterior.

That, balanced up against the collapse force crashing down across an acre of floor space. That's a lot of leverage.

Thoughts?

-Gumboot
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Er, Jennie C - it reads to me like Gumboot's factoring in a concrete core! :confused:

Either that, or I've had one too many beers. Or he has. ??? It is Friday night down here, after all.

My understanding is that the plane impact damaged/destroyed a number of columns, and fires weakened more of them, so that the remaining columns in the impact/fire area had to bear more weight and eventually failed due to said excess weight and heat.

Lots of the outer columns actually remained, as shown by the rubble pile.

Of course the possibility exists that I'm totally missing the point, and I'll accept that if that's the case.
 
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orphia nay said:
My understanding is that the plane impact damaged/destroyed a number of columns, and fires weakened more of them, so that the remaining columns in the impact/fire area had to bear more weight and eventually failed due to said excess weight and heat.

Lots of the outer columns actually remained, as shown by the rubble pile.

Of course the possibility exists that I'm totally missing the point, and I'll accept that if that's the case.
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It was more that extra loading came on the exterior columns due to damage to the core. Weight was transferred to the exterior via the hat truss. At the same time floor trusses in the impact zone, weakened by the fire, began to sag (as documented by NYPD aviation unit photographs). As these trusses sagged they pulled the exterior columns inwards, created a bowing of the exterior wall, which was visible some time before collapse. The NYPD aviation unit observed this and reported that structural collapse was imminent - hence why WTC7 was evacuated.

Unfortunately due to conflict between NYPD and FDNY, they had never developed a common communication method, so the FDNY didn't know this critical information.

Ultimately the exterior columns reached a bowing point where they could nolonger contain their load and so they failed across the entire impact zone.

In some angles of the collapse an entire section of the core of WTC1 - at least 60 to 80 floors - can be seen standing in the smoke for about 15 - 20 seconds after the rest of the building collapsed. It then collapses itself.

You are right as well that a "shard" of the exterior columns at a corner, several floors high, did remain standing for some time after the building had collapsed, before it too failed.

-Gumboot
 
From orphia nay:
Er, Jennie C - it reads to me like Gumboot's factoring in a concrete core! :confused:
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From Gumboot:
This left a severly damaged core standing on its own. Of course, it could not possibly remain standing like that, and within seconds it too collapses.
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Note, he says the "core" not the "concrete" core.

I was just having fun, being also immersed in the discussion of the "realistice" (original poster's spelling) explanation for "free fall" and the "concrete core." In that thread, Christophera is insisting that a concrete core "had to have" been there and every time he types the words, he includes the link that I included.

It's very tedious to read, but it becomes funny just barely often enough that I'm still reading.

But hey, thanks for giving me another reason to post so I can grow ever closer to being able to have an avatar and signature (not that I have any idea what to use for either)
 
Call me old fashioned, but I love to watch the hounds chase things. It is for this reason, that I throw this little tidbit out for the CTers to go rabid over...

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/01crime5.pdf

On the last page of this PDF, which basically analyzes the demographics of the victims and offenders of 9/11, the FBi lists all 19 "Offenders" as WHITE MALES.

lol...I guess if you are not African coloration, you are considered white, but I am sure I have just given Dylan and the rest another lit byte of info to misrepresent...lol

TAM

Edit: Here is a very interesting article, from the FBi, their testimony to congressional arms committee in MAY 2001. (prior to 9/11)

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm

TAM
 
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gumboot said:
It was more that extra loading came on the exterior columns due to damage to the core. Weight was transferred to the exterior via the hat truss. At the same time floor trusses in the impact zone, weakened by the fire, began to sag (as documented by NYPD aviation unit photographs). As these trusses sagged they pulled the exterior columns inwards, created a bowing of the exterior wall, which was visible some time before collapse. The NYPD aviation unit observed this and reported that structural collapse was imminent - hence why WTC7 was evacuated.

Unfortunately due to conflict between NYPD and FDNY, they had never developed a common communication method, so the FDNY didn't know this critical information.

Ultimately the exterior columns reached a bowing point where they could nolonger contain their load and so they failed across the entire impact zone.

In some angles of the collapse an entire section of the core of WTC1 - at least 60 to 80 floors - can be seen standing in the smoke for about 15 - 20 seconds after the rest of the building collapsed. It then collapses itself.

You are right as well that a "shard" of the exterior columns at a corner, several floors high, did remain standing for some time after the building had collapsed, before it too failed.

-Gumboot
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Thanks, Gumboot. :)

Ah, the clear light of day.

I guess this might be what happens when I can't be bothered reading Christophera's Realistice threadi. Does he alwayse add vowelse to the end of wordse?

Jennie C, well done on your perseverence with the LC threads and others. You should be proud of your number of posts in comparison to mine - I suspect too many of mine have been rather dumb questions as above. :o
I enjoy seeing your posts telling us your thoughts and where you're up to in the long threads. You should try and find an avatar that reflects all that diligence of yours.
 
QUOTE The manipulation of the Citgo witness is reprehensible in my opinion. That is what I will expose.
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I am saving all of this Russell. I am documenting everything you are saying and doing. This sentence will be a gem. Can you please elaborate on my "manipulation"?
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:eye-poppi
 
W6102LA said:
Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:p
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Here's something to keep in mind if April Gallop becomes a Denier in the FC:

I know Dylan is a generous kid, I know first hand from what he did for April Gallop which was a nice gesture. But I feel this detail was overlooked and money can be a sticky thing to bring up, so I never did. But apparently you felt the overwhelming need to bring it up now.
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W6102LA said:
Amuse yourselves....

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=410&st=30

:p
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Poor Russell, even his fellow tinhatters can't stand him. Of course, they have different reasons for dismissing him there than we have for dismissing him here.

He is dismissed here because he cannot and will not respond meaningfully to legitimate queries; he cannot and will not engage in intelligent discourse on legitimate subjects; he cannot and will not articulate his own views coherently; he posts grandiose posts and then backs off of them when called upon for details; he posts grandiose posts and then backs off when someone offers to follow through on his "evidence" even though he is not willing to do so himself; he posts nonsense and then can't put his "money where his mouth is", etc.

At the same time that he pretends to be a "researcher", he fails miserably at research, refuses to analyze or dig deeper into his alleged "evidence", and he subscribes willynilly to all manner of lunatic conspiracy theories, follows the usual tinhat path of ignoring facts and evidence, spouting nonsense, resorting to "Just Asking Questions" mode while simultaneously avoiding and ignoring and refusing to address the answers, etc.

Here, he is repeatedly called on his BS, his cherry picking, his nonsensical, illogical posts, his tinhat theories, his pathetic attempts to shift goalposts, his ridiculous attempts to disparage others in his efforts to deflect attention from his own shortcomings, and his inability to respond meaningfully to any of the numerous legitimate queries and challenges that have arisen from his lame posts - with facts and evidence which he cannot and has not ever been able to refute, and which he has made no legitimate effort to even attempt to refute.

There, he's taken on by idiots as idiotic or more idiotic than himself for idiotic reasons on idiotic subjects.

No wonder he went back there ~ it's a lot less work. He only has to talk idiocy with idiots below his own level of idiocy.

Ah, well, good for Russell. He's back in his element at the LC forum - there, he can at least appear intelligent to the LC loony bin whose collective IQ doesn't break double digits.
 
Gravy said:
Yup. That's fake.
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Wait, why would somebody do that?

I mean, the person who dubbed it obviously knew what they were doing, knew they were "faking" the video. So is this a faction within the deniers who knows it's BS but who propagate it for some other reason? Someone playing a practical joke? What?
 
The integrity, quality, legitamacy of the evidence is secondary to most truthers. What is important is furthering the movement and its agenda, regardless. Faking of evidence is not surprising at all. What is surprising is that we havent seen more of it.

TAM
 
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