Loose Change - Part II

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60hzxtl said:
Delphi,

Let me say thanks for starting this. In the universe of CT's you are Copernicus.
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I'm just so glad the response has been as strong as it has over here on the JREF. Gravy and Wildcat and Chipmunk and CptColumbo and kookbreaker and so many other people have done way more than I ever would've imagined to counter this nonsense. It's also been amazing how many different people have come together from different political backgrounds, different careers, and different age groups to fight this. It gives me some hope for my species.
 
Mutton-Head said:
But perhaps we are at an impasse…..
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Yes, we are at an impasse, at least in terms of convincing you, because (a) you reject our results for reasons of "intuition," and (b) you haven't done any actual work to challenge our results.

It's very simple. You said you didn't believe gravity alone could have done that much damage -- a belief that, I might add, is hampered by a fundamental confusion on the concept of energy, and unsupported by any relevant training or experience.

I didn't know the answer either, so I ran a brief calculation and showed that the gravitational energy was staggering, vastly greater than "explosives" under any remotely credible scenario.

There's nothing wrong with asking the question. Ignoring the answer, on the other hand, is not useful.

Either your "intuition" or my calculation is wrong. I might have made a mistake, which is why I showed all of my work. So find the mistake. Ask any expert you like. I'll be glad to defend and clarify my calculations.

But if you cannot find a mistake, then you are wrong. There is no third alternative.

There's no shame in being wrong, if you learn from your mistakes. Give it a try.
 
The_Fire said:
Oh yeah, that cute little slip of paper called a "release form". I remember them rather vividly from an informecial I did for Århus County. It involved a litter of mini-humans (the socalled "kids") in one of those parkingspaces the adults put them in (a socalled "kindergarten") and having to clear every one of the little buggers with their parents.
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Makes me wonder: did they secure a release from the people they filmed in their extra footage--the fireman, the widow, etc.
 
The_Fire said:
*Picks up a "TomCat" tamer bat*
I*wham*Dont*wham*Think*wham*So*wham*Delphi_Ote

Does anyone have need for a slightly broken bat with a nice red color and Delphi's teeth imbedded in it?
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*through broken teeth and blood* I guess I forgot to say please?
:Banane39:
 
"911research" has put out another critique of LC2 called Sifting Through Loose Change. Its index page contains a link to Gravy's critique (and I think it contains information and images directly from the document):

Because of its flaws, [Loose Change] is an easy target for debunkers defending the official story that the attack was the work of Islamic fundamentalists. One example is the the very detailed debunking of the entire video entitled 9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide: And debunking of various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, many people -- perhaps a vast majority of Americans -- are likely to dismiss the film's vitally important conclusions because of the many errors it makes along the way. Not surprisingly, Loose Change is being exploited by apologists for the official story to reinforce the stereotype that has long been used to by the mainstream to media to bludgeon the 9/11 Truth Movement: that all challenges to the official story are the product of irrational "conspiracy theorists."
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edit: I guess I should make it clear that this critique is from a rival CT perspective, so its character is quite different from that of Gravy's piece.
 
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the film's vitally important conclusions
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How can one reach any good conclusion when the data is flawed. For *** sakes! They admit themselves the film is wrong!:mad:

These CT guys are NUTS! NUTS!
 
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Is this effort akin to starting small fires around a bigger fire in an attempt to divert it, or what?

This site had no problem acknowledging flaws in LC2 but it seems they don't mind continuing to preach total pulverization and controlled demo. (I am aware it's another CT site) When I clicked the link to see the proof of this complete pulverization it brought me to another debunked point, the stand down of NORAD, instead of the pulverization pages. This stuff is quite frustrating. How are people buying these "facts" mixed in with complete ignorance, unprofessional investigation and cherry-picked data? ARGHHHHH. Is it possible to write enough debunking guides to even get 10% of the people who buy into this to step back and think critically?


ETA: At least Gravy's work and others in this forum are doing some damage, like delphi_ote, this gives me some hope.
 
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chipmunk stew said:
"911research" has put out another critique of LC2 called Sifting Through Loose Change. Its index page contains a link to Gravy's critique (and I think it contains information and images directly from the document):
"Because of its flaws, [Loose Change] is an easy target for debunkers defending the official story that the attack was the work of Islamic fundamentalists. One example is the the very detailed debunking of the entire video entitled 9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide: And debunking of various 9/11 conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, many people -- perhaps a vast majority of Americans -- are likely to dismiss the film's vitally important conclusions because of the many errors it makes along the way. Not surprisingly, Loose Change is being exploited by apologists for the official story to reinforce the stereotype that has long been used to by the mainstream to media to bludgeon the 9/11 Truth Movement: that all challenges to the official story are the product of irrational 'conspiracy theorists.'"

edit: I guess I should make it clear that this critique is from a rival CT perspective, so its character is quite different from that of Gravy's piece.
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Hilarious! Everyone in the "Truth Movement" criticizes "Loose Change" for being so flawed. Meanwhile, their own work is just as flawed. They just haven't put it on video (probably couldn't afford the rights).

I love the idea that somehow Avery & co. came up with valid conclusions in the end, although every one of their arguments is wrong. I did a new count of the b.s. in "Loose Change" recently, and came up with 115 statements that are false or based on false premises, and 156 misleading statements. I put these in a nice list for people who don't have the patience to read my whole critique. I was going to release a final revised critique this weekend, but I'll wait until it's apparent where this copyright thing is headed.

Avery could have avoided the copyright hassle by making a 10-second video that said "We think the government planned, executed, and covered up the terrorist attacks of 9/11. This statement is dedicated to the lives we lost on 9/11. The end." I feel the same way about Mutton Head's posts: if you're only here to express an opinion, please keep it to one post, not 40.

This copyright thing should be a relief to 911truth.org and 911 Scholars for Truth. They've been itching for Dylan Avery to go away so that their message can be heard. I know I'd like to be able to focus more on the misinformarion spread by the rest of the "Truth Movement."

From the trivia department: Since I've been looking into 9/11 CTs, I've come across exactly four people who made it a point to indignantly state that they've been "researching" this stuff for a long time. They are thesyntaxera, Christophera, geggy, and Avery. That reminds me of the poll taken before the presidential election of 2004 that showed that the more people watched Fox News, the less they knew about what was really going on in the world.
 
Mr. Avery speaks!

let me respond to all 7 pages at once:

1) i "threw the movie together with other people's footage" because i was making a movie, in my spare time, which I was under the impression no one would like or want to watch. then, people started asking if i was going to sell copies. so, i put it on sale.
2) i sold the first loose change for 15 bucks, including shipping. i only charged more for the 2nd edition because we spent almost $5,000 making it, including a hard drive which crashed a week before the movie was supposed to be done
3) we donate back to the movement constantly. i dont like publicizing it because i dont do it to prove anything, i do it to give back and to share my success. i just gave 911blogger and revereradionetwork $300 each, i gave Russ Pickering of PentagonResearch $500, and, oh yea, we mail out at LEAST 20 or 30 free dvds a day for servicemen, family members, or people who beg us for one. not to mention we NEVER sell DVDs at screenings, we always give them out.
4) we are not going away. thanks to the success of the 2nd edition, we've had a number of people come to us with both footage and evidence. Loose Change Final Cut will be 100% legal and trust me, it's going to blow the 9/11 movement out of the water.

back to work with me...
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http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=5091&st=180

The man has no shame.
 
delphi_ote said:
I'm just so glad the response has been as strong as it has over here on the JREF. Gravy and Wildcat and Chipmunk and CptColumbo and kookbreaker and so many other people have done way more than I ever would've imagined to counter this nonsense. It's also been amazing how many different people have come together from different political backgrounds, different careers, and different age groups to fight this. It gives me some hope for my species.
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Sorry folks, I've been AWOL. Life has a way of impinging itself in a way we don't always want it to. I think John Lennon said it best. "Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." In any event my hats off to the stalwarts.
 
RandFan said:
Sorry folks, I've been AWOL. Life has a way of impinging itself in a way we don't always want it to. I think John Lennon said it best. "Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." In any event my hats off to the stalwarts.
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How could I have missed RandFan in my list? Good to hear from you, though!
 
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