Loose Change - Part II

[CptColumbo]

Another issue that has to be taken into consideration: In the days following the collapse it was still considered a "rescue" operation. The rubble was being cleared away as quickly as possible, in the hopes that survivors would be found. They weren't thinking that somebody will someday doubt that those two planes brought down the towers so we should be careful, they were thinking let's get this $iht out of the way and save as many people as we can.

 

[kookbreaker]

Brick houses "pancake." Smaller apartment buildings "pancake." A high-rise steel structure whose height is several times its width and depth has NEVER pancaked.

Oh really? Then why were internal fire-fighting efforts at the Philadelphia Meridian Plaza abandoned? They claimed it was because of the threat of 'pancake collapse'. Were the PFD a bunch of liars?

 

[kookbreaker]

It is nonsensical to expect a high-rise steel structure to "pancake."

Then you really need to tell every structural engineer in the world about your marvelous findings. You basicly are saying that skyscrapers are immune to fire. Just let 'em burn up the office materials inside, make sure the fire doesn't spread, and maybe replace the roof! Why risk firefighters lives if collapse from fire is never a threat?

The reasons are:

1. They are designed to have much more vertical strength than horizontal strength

Strength would matter if there was a sufficient horizontal force acting on the WTC. There was not. Its sheer mass ensured that

2. Most importantly, it has never happened. I can not go on Google and find an example of something that has never happened. That is silly.

Pancake collapse has certainly happened, most often in earthquakes.

http://www.restoringearth.co.uk/edu...ohazards/earthquake/building_failure/pw3.shtm

 

[DavidJames]

Mutton-Head

If would be helpful if even one genuine structural engineer shared your opinion, but none do.

Please explain to this laymen, why I should believe you, another laymen, rather then certified and experience experts in the field. Explain, what special level of intelligence you have that I shouldn't lump you in with the other crackpots, like Christophera (who started another similar thread). You two have much in common, while you are much more articulate, both of you hold your own opinions is high regard, but yet don't have a lick of advanced knowledge of experience in the fields on which you pontificate.

Tell me Mutton-Head, what makes you different then Christophera or someone who claims to see bigfoot for that matter?

 

[dubfan]

Priceless.

Have I been tricked?

For anyone who cares, I've had my account un-suspended, but my posts are subject to moderation.

 

[Abbyas]

I know this has been said before but, this from a poster at LC:

But feel free to stay in fairy-land where government is benevolent, and you still have a say in how the country is run.

is exactly what kills me about the truth movement.

I don't have to do anything. I don't have to write my congresspeople, I don't have to volunteer, I don't even have to vote. Because it doesn't help anything. A perfect excuse for laziness.

 

[kookbreaker]

And have these folks all left the United States? I doubt it.

 

[aggle-rithm]

1. They are designed to have much more vertical strength than horizontal strength

But they have NO diagonal strength. Why would they? If the building is tilted at 30 degrees, you've got much worse problems than trying to keep it intact.

2. Most importantly, it has never happened. I can not go on Google and find an example of something that has never happened. That is silly.

Of course it is silly, as are you for bringing it up.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Sorry, but the fact that they’re experts, only makes me more suspicious.

Then you're unlikely to ever to understand anything, since experts are the source of knowledge.

So, let’s get to my suspicions. First, some background. Anybody please correct any errors that you think I have made:

Gladly!

My biggest question has always been how did the core columns break apart?

Millions of pounds of concrete and steel fell on them. Next question.

Or, how did they bend upon themselves in a “Z”-like pattern such that the top of the building fell straight downward?

Gravity.

That's the "fell in it's footprint," concept. The center of gravity of the building never deviated horizontally.

What force would have caused it to deviate horizontally?

No, I don’t build skyscrapers,

OBviously.

but I have been told that the core columns are essential to the buildings vertical strength. In my understanding, they make sure that floors do not pancake immediately after the building is finished.

...the hell...?

In my understanding, they are made of pieces of steel which are approx 3 stories high, and are welded together. I also believe that they are all cross-braced to each other.

Are we still talking about the WTC, or buildings in general?

Does anybody disagree with any of these points?

Disagree? I couldn't even understand half of them.

 

[Dave_46]

...In my opinion, firemen saying they heard/saw/felt explosives is good evidence. I would consider them reasonable experts in the field. Not ultimate experts, but reasonable....

Why should firemen be "reasonable experts" about explosives? They have expertise in dealing with the aftermath of explosiONS, and in anticpating when explosiONS may occur during a fire. That has nothing to do with expertise in explosiVES.

Dave

Edited to fix quote

 

[Manny]

Thanks to Manny for the fire fighters union. However, I have to admit that it makes me chuckle. I can hardly even get MY union representatives to call me back, and I pay them $800 bucks a year. Ha!

Your union didn't lose 343 members on 9-11, nor is it's membership being called, to a man, cowards by an intellectually dishonest group of people trying to deflect blame from the people who killed those members.

Call them or stop citing firemen.

 

[Mutton-Head]

Hoo Nelly! (Or is it Hoo Doggy?)

I thought I was taking Gravy's advice by sticking to one subject, (Good advice Gravy) but I see I need to further refine so we are only talking about one thing at a time.
(Oh now I remember, it's "Good Gravy!")

For now, a reply



L'Ambiance Plaza

The total collapse of a building under construction in Bridgeport, Connecticut has been cited as an example total progressive collapse. On April 23, 1987, a planned sixteen-story building about halfway through its construction, collapsed due to deficient temporary connections. The colapse killed 28 workers. 1

This diagram shows the state of the building's construction at the tie of the collapse. (Figure by Rachel Martin)
The building, which consisted of two adjacent towers, employed the lift-slab method of construction, patented by Youtz and Slick in 1948. This method consists of fabricating all of the floor slabs as a stack at ground level, then elevating the slabs up into their final positions using a hydraulic lifting apparatus. 2




I guess the "structural engineers" amongst you who suggested this one failed to notice the totally different construction technique, the fact that they were temporary supports, and the fact that the building wasn't completed.

My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.

 

[Mutton-Head]

Manny, honestly, stop with the accusations. I know that 343 firmen were murdered. I don't believe all of the perpetrators were accounted for. Or at the very least, all of the pertinent details have been published by the NIST. Do you think that I'm lying? I'm sorry if you do.

 

[Mutton-Head]

I'm also sorry that you think I'm "Intellectually dis-honest." I'm not. You may not see my point, but that does not make me dis-honest.

 

[kookbreaker]

My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.

I gave you a link:

http://www.restoringearth.co.uk/edu...ohazards/earthquake/building_failure/pw3.shtm

Or do you discount it since it was not a complete pancaking? Which would not happen with the lesser volume of material above the failure point.

Do you consider the Phildelphia Fire Department to be cowards for fearing a 'Pancake collapse' of the Meridian Plaza building?

And how many buildings on the world were hit by fuel-laden planes at top speed and survied?

I would also add the Ronan Point Apartment collapse. Not a complete collapse ( a corner of the building just collapsed). This was due to a gas explosion and poor construction. But part of it collpased, symetrically and in pancake fashion.

There is also the Sampoong Department Store collapse. One moment it was there... the next it was gone. Pancake collapse. Not fully a steel structured building, howwever.

 

[Manny]

I'm also sorry that you think I'm "Intellectually dis-honest." I'm not. You may not see my point, but that does not make me dis-honest.

212-683-4832

 

[Pardalis]

Actually, I'm kind of honored that I was chosen as the chop point. Haven't been here more than a few days and as many posts and I saw myself as starting a massive thread. I haven't had this much reaction to something I wrote since I started my day-by-day history of World War II 11 years ago.

Of course, that was split between folks who loved it and those who were torqued off that I dishonored the Italian Army or didn't include the 99th Messkit Repair Battalion.

Could you post a link to your website? It interests me very much.

 

[Kiwiwriter]

Moving from WTC to WW2

Could you post a link to your website? It interests me very much.

With pleasure...if I could figure out how to do a signature block, I would put it in there:

http://www.usswashington.com/dl_index.htm


Read and enjoy. Comments, criticism, and links are welcome. My e-mail address is somewhere on it.

And a WW2 comment on WTC: my British relatives and friends were immediately taken back to the Blitz, when they saw the TV footage. And one of them reminded me that they had to put up with 9/11 every night.

 

[dissonance]

My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it has never happened.

So what?

Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can never happen.

 

[money]

L'Ambiance Plaza

The total collapse of a building under construction in Bridgeport, Connecticut has been cited as an example total progressive collapse. On April 23, 1987, a planned sixteen-story building about halfway through its construction, collapsed due to deficient temporary connections. The colapse killed 28 workers. 1

This diagram shows the state of the building's construction at the tie of the collapse. (Figure by Rachel Martin)
The building, which consisted of two adjacent towers, employed the lift-slab method of construction, patented by Youtz and Slick in 1948. This method consists of fabricating all of the floor slabs as a stack at ground level, then elevating the slabs up into their final positions using a hydraulic lifting apparatus. 2

"This diagram"? What diagram?

You have more than 15 posts now, so you can use links to show us your evidence.

Are you ever going to get around to showing us the math involved in your first post?