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Looming economic collapse

The only problems I see with this plan are a Mad Max type scenario/major collapse of the economy/deflation/prolonged collapse in the housing market/etc. - all of which are as far as I know unprecedented and which don't seem to have much credence on this forum. Otherwise, if the world continues to follow the same trajectory it seems to have up until this point, I think my plan is relatively solid.

I'm no expert, but I think one of the problems with Mad Max scenarios is that nobody really knows how to prepare for them. Guns, ammo, and canned food, sure, but you'll eventually run out of those (as well as water and fuel).

The other problem is that the probability of a Mad Max scenario is really small, and if it doesn't happen, you'll either eat Spam for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for a decade or watch your precious stockpile as it hits its 'best before' date in your basement. The famous investor Peter Lynch has been credited for saying "More money has been lost in preparing for bear markets than in the bear markets themselves"; for apocalyptic scenarios, that difference must be enormous.
 
What do you guys think of things like Harry Browne's "Permanent Portfolio"?

25% US stocks
25% US treasuries
25% cash/money market
25% precious metals (chiefly gold)

It's reasoned that the stocks are for prosperous times, the treasuries for prosperous or deflationary times, cash for flexibility, and gold as a hedge against inflation: http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/04/20/fail-safe-investing-harry-brownes-permanent-portfolio/

- Scott



T-Bills and cash are Very connected and gold will get crushed when rates of t-bills inevitably increase

i would say nix gold for a commodities basket. If you want to stay conservative there is no problem with keeping lots of cash and bonds, if you want to educate yourself and be a more aggressive investor move the cash into the forex market
 
So drkitten (and whoever else want to weigh in) what do you think about real estate?

Well, real estate certainly can be a reasonable investment -- unlike gold or lottery tickets or roulette chips or whatever the conspiracy theorists are selling you today.

I tend, however, to steer clear of it for a number of reasons.

* It's hard to diversify, and therefore risky. I'm not sure what would cause my stock holdings in CAT to go down to zero,.... but even in the face of that kind of global disaster, I'd still have my holdings in GOOG, BIG, and CNI to help me through. With real estate, I've got $300,000 tied up in a single building that's one earthquake, landslide, or wildfire away from zero.

* It generates negative money. There's an old Wall Street adage -- "Never invest in anything that eats or needs repairs." That $300k building will take $10k out of my pocket in maintenance and taxes even if I can't rent a foot of it. By contrast, CAT pays me something like 2% a year; GOOG doesn't pay me anything, but I also don't need to pay taxes on it.

* It's not divisible. If I need to come up with $20,000 for major medical bills, I can sell off a few hundred shares of my vast holdings of CAT. It's hard to sell one bedroom of a three-bedroom house.

* It's not liquid. If I need that $20,000, I can have it today -- or at worst by the end of the week. Even in a best-case scenario, it takes a month to get out of real estate, and it can take years. (There was just an article in the NYT about some mansion in Atlanta that had been on the market for 23 years....)

* It's hard to audit. I know quite a bit about the finances of CAT, and there are hundreds if not thousands of analysts happy to dig even deeper into it and tell me what they find. But to learn something about the house on the corner of Hell and Brimstone, I have to pay several hundred dollars to an inspector who still may not find the imp infestation or the unsafe and out-of-code wiring in the back wall.

* It's not transportable. If I get a phone call from Betty Windsor asking me to become Minister of Tea Kettles and Domestic Appliances, I can move to London and take my CAT stock with me. It's hard to pack a three-bedroom house and even harder to find a spot to unpack it.

With that said, you do need to have a place to live, so you're going to have to buy real estate at some point (with all the risks), and your plan doesn't have any superficial and obvious problems (aside from "where are you going to get the renters from?", which is always a problem with rental property). So if you're happy with real estate as part of your investment portfolio, go for it. Prices are good and you can get a lot of leverage, which means you will make lots of money -- or lose lots, but you're young enough and single enough that going broke isn't a real problem.

But I'd stress "part of" your investment portfolio, not all of it. Just as I didn't put everything I owned into CAT, despite the advantage I outlined, you probably still want to make sure you've got something in other investment categories. Just in case you need $20k and don't want to sell off one of your bedrooms.
 
And to bring the discussion back to the questions of which experts to trust, a simple glance at Harry Browne's web site shows him to be a classic snake-oil salesman who's trying to push his particular political and economic theories on you in order to sell you his investment advice.

Well then let me ask a question about which experts to trust. Take Japan - they've been in a prolonged economic slump for about 20 years. Assuming there is "the right thing to do" to get them out of this situation, and they have access to economic experts to advise them, why have they been unable to get out of it? Have they listened to the wrong experts? Do they for some reason want to maintain a low growth economy? Or maybe its because identifying an expert in a field like economics, which is not exactly a hard science in the way that chemistry or physics are, is rather difficult. If the worlds 2nd largest - oops make that 3rd largest! (Hello China)! - economy has trouble determining which expert advice to follow how is Joe Sixpack supposed to? As I asked in my earlier post, if I want to help a 911 truther to understand the WTC collapse I can direct him to the NIST report or any number of other science based explanations. Where is the layman in economics to turn for trustworthy expert advice on the economy? Or maybe my question is based on a fallacy and no such thing exists - actually I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

I realize there were some answers posted to this question, but it seems like the answer was that the layman needed to do some kind of analysis to tell the difference between a true expert and a snake oil salesman. But if the layman was capable of this level of discrimination then he's not exactly a layman. I think that skeptics understand that not everyone can be an expert in everything. In the case of peer reviewed science then we can say that's ok, just trust things that come from credible science journals and use some critical thinking skills and you'll be ok. Unfortunately, there really doesn't seem to be anything analogous when it comes to the economy.

The reason I think this is so important and I'm gnattering on about it is because our understanding of the economy affects our deepest life choices. Almost nothing matters more to you if you don't have a job or are about to get your house forclosed on. But since most people are layman and don't really know who to trust they end up trusting Sarah Palin or Ron Paul or Paul Krugman or their neighbor or whoever. Sure, Krugman has a Nobel Prize but he's not an infallible source of truth either, and he's so political that a lot of people are going to write him off immediately for his self avowed liberalism regardless of the merits of his arguments. So is our only way to understand the economy to become experts ourselves, and to gain "the right kind of expertise"? What I mean by this is that drkitten disregards Roubini as a 1 note hack. I can see kitten's point, but Roubini is a professor. If you were studying under him are you supposed to just disregard everything he's saying? How would you know what to disregard and what is "true"? And even if someone was able to do this, the vast majority of people are just going to go about their lives in a confused state getting their information from Fox News or whatever. Its simply not practical that everyone is going to personally develop expertise on the economy.

Thoughts?
 
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Well then let me ask a question about which experts to trust. Take Japan - they've been in a prolonged economic slump for about 20 years. Assuming there is "the right thing to do" to get them out of this situation, and they have access to economic experts to advise them, why have they been unable to get out of it?

Well, do you smoke? If so, is it because you don't have access to the right medical experts to tell you how unhealthy a habit it is, or is it because for whatever reason you can't or don't want to quit? Similarly, most Americans are at least slightly overweight; many are vastly so. That's not because they don't know that excess weight is unhealthy or they've been listening to the wrong experts; indeed, I don't know any "experts" who tell you that weighing 300+ pounds is a good idea.

But the obesity epidemic persists.

Japan is in something of a similar situation; they've tried doing "the right thing" as the experts recommend several times, and each time it ends up getting stopped for political reasons. Really, it's the same reason that the deficit hawks have been winning the stimulus debate recently in the states. Every economist knows they're wrong, but there are more people who aren't economists -- and they vote, too.

The Japanese are also in a rather special situation culturally and politically; they have a much bigger pensioner problem than the Americans have, and inflation is a much greater problem for pensioners and similar people on fixed incomes. (Note, for example, how hard the [US-based] AARP pushed for a "cost-of-living" increase last year despite the fact that costs of living actually decreased over the previous year. Multiply that by several times and you have the Japanese retirement lobby.)

I realize there were some answers posted to this question, but it seems like the answer was that the layman needed to do some kind of analysis to tell the difference between a true expert and a snake oil salesman. But if the layman was capable of this level of discrimination then he's not exactly a layman.

The hell he's not. Laymen aren't idiots. Most of the analysis doesn't involve figuring out who's right or who's wrong, but who's trustworthy and who isn't. You're being asked to do the same sort of analysis of an economist that you do of a mechanic -- or of a late-night TV pitchman. Post #5, for example, specifically points out that the column discussed in the OP is written by a guy hoping to make money off the people he scares. It's a late-night infomercial in print. You don't need to know exactly how he's wrong -- you just need to know that his advice is not unbiased, and discount it appropriately. Henry Blodgett was banned from the securities industry for fraud, and now runs a business information Web site. Again, you don't need to know how he's wrong to know that he's not trustworthy.


But since most people are layman and don't really know who to trust they end up trusting Sarah Palin or Ron Paul or Paul Krugman or their neighbor or whoever.

Well, let's look at them.

Sarah Palin is widely recognized as a total airhead whose multiple lies ("death panels," anyone) are well-documented.

Ron Paul is well-recognized as one of the top members of the Libertarian movement, and a few seconds on Google will illustrate that they're not the sort of group you'd trust with a burnt-out match.

Krugman,....

Sure, Krugman has a Nobel Prize

... and several other major awards in economics; he's a tenured faculty member at one of the top econ departments in the world and a regular columnist at one of the major mainstream newspapers in the world.

I'd trust him more than I'd trust Palin or Paul.

but he's not an infallible source of truth either,

No one said he was "infallible." But if you need to pick between Krugman, Palin, and Paul, there's no choice.

and he's so political that a lot of people are going to write him off immediately for his self avowed liberalism regardless of the merits of his arguments.

All right, let's go a little deeper. Who are the economists who write him off immediately for his self-avowed liberalism?

We've already established that Palin and Paul don't know any economics. So their opinion to write Krugman off is no more valid or authoritative than Paul's support for the gold standard. Show me another major economist -- even better, show me a major group of economists -- who write him off. Just because he's "political" doesn't mean he's wrong. Just because he's "liberal" doesn't mean he's wrong. If you can find a single fact-based criticism of Krugman, we can look at the criticism and see how it adjusts our opinions.

I've given you a fact-based criticism of Palin. She tells lies, and is therefore untrustworthy. Show me a similar criticism of Krugman and I'll stop trusting him.

And even if someone was able to do this, the vast majority of people are just going to go about their lives in a confused state getting their information from Fox News or whatever.

Then people are dumb. They'll also go around smoking and eating too much. You can't force people to think critically if they believe that's too much work. But you also shouldn't pay attention to the opinions of people who can't be bothered to think critically.
 
This. Every recession is decried by some as the "end of capitalism/economy/world", but people's desire to exchange goods and services for money always wins out in the end. It just hurts a little sometimes.

- Scott

Depends how many more wealth-providing holes in the ground there are waiting to be exploited.

For some time, much US wealth has been illusory, with little to do with goods or services , but with making money out of nothing.




What economic recession are they referring to? We happen to be motoring along here reasonably well. Then again, we don't listen to doom-peddlers...

Which planet/country do you live on/in? Is there space for more people there?
 
Which planet/country do you live on/in? Is there space for more people there?

Which planet? The real one.

There's lots of space for more people there, but you'd hate it because you'd find that the economic system actually worked and that people considered you a nutbar.
 
I would add that, you MIGHT be able to find an economist or two, even in tenured positions in Econ departments of a pretty fair university, who will "write off" Krugman, for whatever reason. Then again, you might also find creationists among the science departments, too. In fact, the biggest problem we have is that when there ARE said beasts, they tend to make noises, at least in the media, that go way, way, way beyond their significance in the field.

Economists who mostly agree with Krugman are a dime-a-dozen, and unremarkable in the grand scheme (you have Krugman already, why bother publicizing concurrents?) In contrast, there is the Maverick who Bucks the Party Line, but because he says what certain political advocates want to hear, he gets blasted all over the place as if he has something useful to say.

I've made the same description of the anti-vaxxers. Any time you see some piece on the anti-vax movement, you get the same people showing up to spout the party line - JB Handley, Jenny McCarthy, Jay Gordon, etc. On the side of the vaccines is...a local pediatrician, who they call to comment. Why is that? Because you can find anyone to provide the consensus, but there are just a few who are able/willing to stick their neck out and try to buck it. It's not because they are exceptionally brave or insightful, but because hardly anyone agrees with them.
 
I would add that, you MIGHT be able to find an economist or two, even in tenured positions in Econ departments of a pretty fair university, who will "write off" Krugman, for whatever reason.

Oh, I'm sure you can, but most of the people who want to dismiss Krugman can't even do that.

Precisely because tenured economists who disagree with Krugman are so thin on the ground.

That's the major point of Project Steve (against the creationists); there are, in fact, fewer scientists who doubt evolution than there are scientists who agree with evolution and are named Steve. And when you look at the lists and credentials of the "noted" creationists, Mike Behe is really the only one with actual experience in science.

I've made the same description of the anti-vaxxers. Any time you see some piece on the anti-vax movement, you get the same people showing up to spout the party line - JB Handley, Jenny McCarthy, Jay Gordon, etc. On the side of the vaccines is...a local pediatrician, who they call to comment. Why is that? Because you can find anyone to provide the consensus, but there are just a few who are able/willing to stick their neck out and try to buck it. It's not because they are exceptionally brave or insightful, but because hardly anyone agrees with them.

Yup.

It's hardly beyond a layman's capacity, when presented with an opinion, to ask "who is giving this?" "Who agrees with this?" and "why?"

Who agrees with Krugman? Damn near every professional economist out there. Why? Because they think he's correct.

Who disagrees with him? Faux News and the right-wing blogosphere. Why? At the weazel himself put it, because they think he's "liberal." A political, not an epistemological, disagreement.

So most of the world thinks he's right, and no one seem to think that he's wrong. Would that I could achieve such.
 
Oh, I'm sure you can, but most of the people who want to dismiss Krugman can't even do that.

I would have to actually look around to do it, and it wouldn't be worth my time. The only reason I mentioned that, however, is that I got the impression from this thread that Roubini is an academic. You called him a quack, and it is pretty clear from the discussion what this is about, and the key is, it's a very common situation, one that is readily recognizable. The case of the well-publicized quack is pretty much ubiquitous in every field. So I figured he was an example of what I was talking about.
 
I would have to actually look around to do it, and it wouldn't be worth my time. The only reason I mentioned that, however, is that I got the impression from this thread that Roubini is an academic.

Yes (NYU), but even Roubini doesn't really disagree with Krugman; they're both basically neo-Keynesians. Like Krugman, Roubini favored a much larger stimulus package and opposed austerity measures.

You called him a quack, and it is pretty clear from the discussion what this is about, and the key is, it's a very common situation, one that is readily recognizable.

I don't think I actually called him a quack; I do, however, think he's very close to the line that defines "quack," and he's definitely a one-trick pony who sees all glasses as half-empty regardless of their fullness. What may save him from full-on quackdom is precisely that he's very hard to catch in an actual mistake of fact. He's the sort of Eeyore character who sees a potential storm in every cloud and potential tornado in every storm, but I've never seen him actually imagine cloud that aren't there.

Which gets back to the point that actual fact-based criticisms of Krugman are really hard to find.
 
Which gets back to the point that actual fact-based criticisms of Krugman are really hard to find.

Out of curiosity, whats your opinion on his statement that the USA is in the beginning stages of the Third Depression?
 
Out of curiosity, whats your opinion on his statement that the USA is in the beginning stages of the Third Depression?

I don't think I have an opinion on that specific statement; I tend to trust his analysis generally (in case you can't tell), but I also recognize that his crystal ball isn't any better than anyone else. In context, his statement isn't as much a prediction as part of a jeremiad to the powers-that-be.

I.e., when my sweetie tells me "honey, we're going to run out of gas before too long," that's not really a prediction. I'm being told, subtly -- or not so subtly -- to pull over at the next gas station and fill the damn thing up. Of course, if I'm a total gas gauge-denier, I might believe that sweetie is making that statement for political reasons ("don't be ridiculous; we've got lots of gas. Let me guess, you just want to pee, right?"). But I don't think either of us actually expect the car to sputter to a halt at the side of I-666.

And that's part of what Krugman seems to be finding so frustrating, I think. I don't think he really believes that the current group of Washington suits -- hell, Bernanke was the chairman at Princeton who hired him; Krugman's on a first-name basis with the head of the Fed -- are really going to allow the Third Depression to happen. But he's pointing out that if they want to avoid that, they're going to have to do something -- and to look at the damn gas gauge.
 
out of curiosity, where were the experts before the financial meltdown? i`m more likely to trust an expert to get us out the mess if they warned me it was coming beforehand. i know the argument is that you can`t deal with a crisis until it happens, but i will default to somebody that saw the warning signs, properly diagnosed them, and was realistic to the limitations that were/are available to fix said problems.
 
out of curiosity, where were the experts before the financial meltdown? i`m more likely to trust an expert to get us out the mess if they warned me it was coming beforehand. i know the argument is that you can`t deal with a crisis until it happens, but i will default to somebody that saw the warning signs, properly diagnosed them, and was realistic to the limitations that were/are available to fix said problems.

Well, John McCain is out...
 
Tomorrow might be interesting.

So might September 14, or July 8, 2013. The future is notoriously hard to predict. Any particular reason why you expect something interesting on that particular day? Is that when you expect the Rapture?
 
out of curiosity, where were the experts before the financial meltdown?

All over the place, including in most of the economic departments world-wide (should I dig up the Krugman 2005 interview?). For that matter, both Bernanke and Greenspan recognized it (Greenspan's now-infamous 2005 comment about "apparent froth" in the housing market), but failed do to anything substantive about it.

There are several reasons for that. The most important is simply that economists don't run the world, or even the government. The people who were running things had carefully placed laissez-faire economists in all the positions of power, which is basically akin to saying "here's the switch that controls the economy -- and under no circumstances whatsoever are you allowed to touch it."

Greenspan is an instructive example. He correctly spotted the bubble in 2005, but failed to do anything about it. He's pretty much a free-market absolutist and expected that the market would act in its own long-term self-interest by regulating itself, and therefore it was not only not necessary to act, but not appropriate for him to act. It's difficult to improve on the words of this reporter:

Greenspan noted that he had made a mistake in believing that banks would be rationally compelled, through self-interest, to protect their institutions and shareholders. This belief is a key foundation of free-market capitalist ideology -- that individuals will act rationally to pursue their own self interest and that financial institutions would magnify this rational thought to result in long-term economic growth and increasing general prosperity. What ended up happening, instead, is that both individuals and institutions ignored severe risk in order to pursue massive short-term gains. In this sense, rational self interest rapidly turned into irrational greed. While a few individuals who had gained access and control of key institutions were enriching themselves, the rest of the economic system was isolated, neglected, and suffered increasingly severe strains and failurelooked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder’s equitys. Furthermore, private-backed predatory lending exploited the vehicle of sub-prime mortgages and rapidly toxified a massive segment of the international financial system. Greenspan described these failures as resulting from "a flaw in the model... that defines how the world works."

His testimony is very clear:

* He acknowledges (page 1) having predicted the financial crisis ("underpricing of risk ... would have dire consequences").
* He expected that the banks would take care of this themselves (page 2) ("looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder’s equity") and were in "shocked disbelief" that it didn't happen the way his free-market theories expected. (Of course, at the same time, Krugman and the Keynesians who had been systematically excluded from positions of power were saying that no one, banks included, could be expected to act against the incentives placed to maximize their short-term interests.)
 

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