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Looming economic collapse

Thesis statement: These are the economic End Times. We are going to witness the final economic collapse of the US economy.

Again? I thought it already happened in 2008 and 2009.

Doom peddlers are a dime a dozen. What's usually common among them is that they can cite correct predictions they've made in the past (the crash of 1987, the dot-com bubble, etc. etc.), yet curiously, they are not super-wealthy the way you'd expect reliably accurate market predictors to be. (My personal favorite is Robert Prechter, who foresaw everything yet managed to dispense trading advise that would have resulted in losing over 98% of the invested capital in a 15-year period when the Wilshire 5000 index returned +850% and change.)
 
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From the article:

Despite the many differences between Japan and the US, there is one similarity that continues to matter most in the risk management model my colleagues and I use at Hedgeye, our research firm..

The author, Keith R. McCullough is CEO of Hedgeye, which according to their web site, sells subscriptions for risk management advice.

And so, while I don't feel particularly qualified to comment on the meat of the article, it does concern me that there could be a conflict of interest in writing on risk issues in the economy, when you are selling products that address risk issues in the economy.
 
How much of that article do you agree with?

None of it, I hope. As someone who is trying to build wealth, keep my job, and considering buying a house in the near future, the current state of the economy has me concerned. I try to stay informed, read a lot, and think through things on my own. However, the end result is that I have only become more confused with regards to the economy.

For example, I have listened to a lot of Alex Jones and the people he has on like Gerald Celente. In fact, the CT stuff is eventually what brought me here, which I'm grateful for. Clearly those guys have a product to sell, which is doom. Celente has been predicting collapse for like 15 years or something so I suppose you can just disregard everything he has to say on the subject.

What's more troubling than those guys however is something like the recent article Krugman wrote about his concern that we're on the edge of the next great depression. Here's a guy who won the Nobel prize in econ and he practically sounds like Celente. A little harder to disregard.

Something else which throws me off is the profusion of different takes on the subject from various 'experts'. Any day of the week you can check the op-ed pages of NY times, WSJ or whatever and find someone recommending austerity, someone else recommending increased govt spending, etc. Skeptics understand that you can't be an expert in everything. Hence when Joe Sixpack states that the WTC towers couldn't have been brought down by fire he is directed to the NIST report explaining the physics behind the collapse. I'm an electrical engineer, not an economist. Where is my NIST report on the economy? Who is the keeper of truth when it comes to explaining the recent financial collpase?

Even on this forum you see lively discussion and the butting of heads and ideas when it comes to economics because its not exactly a hard science. If I'm in my lab and I measure 5 volts on my multimeter, it would be silly for someone to argue with that unless the argument was that my instrument is broken or something. However I believe its possible that you could have lively disagreement between two intelligent, well intentioned people with PhD's in econ on the topic of whether or not the government should extend unemployment benefits. Which one am I to believe? Is economics a science at all, or is it just politics hiding behind numbers?

So, how much of this article do I believe? I don't want to believe any of it. I fear that it may be true. What I know is that the economy is still not doing well, e.g. unemployment is still high, a lot of people I work with have lost or are possibly going to lose their jobs. Japan has apparently been pursuing the same sorts of Keynsian policies that we are now, resulting in 20 years of stagnation.

I just want to get on with my life, work hard and build wealth. At least for now I have a good job, make pretty decent money, and want things to stay that way. I'm not emotionally invested in doom, in fact I would love nothing more than for the economy to 'get fixed' whatever that means exactly.

So, is the doom implied in the title of this article, namely that we will bear witness to an economic collapse this year, totally misguided? More broadly speaking, when it comes to the economy who are we to trust? Politicians? Conspiracy theorists? Nobel prize winners? JREF forum posters? Drkitty?
 
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Again? I thought it already happened in 2008 and 2009.

Doom peddlers are a dime a dozen. What's usually common among them is that they can cite correct predictions they've made in the past (the crash of 1987, the dot-com bubble, etc. etc.), yet curiously, they are not super-wealthy the way you'd expect reliably accurate market predictors to be. (My personal favorite is Robert Prechter, who foresaw everything yet managed to dispense trading advise that would have resulted in losing over 98% of the invested capital in a 15-year period when the Wilshire 5000 index returned +850% and change.)

This. Every recession is decried by some as the "end of capitalism/economy/world", but people's desire to exchange goods and services for money always wins out in the end. It just hurts a little sometimes.

- Scott
 
Thesis statement: These are the economic End Times. We are going to witness the final economic collapse of the US economy.

Supporting evidence: http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/11/news/economy/economic_collapse_GDP_unemployment.fortune/

Please discuss.

Can you offer any specifics? For example, if "economic collapse" is imminent, then you should be able to give a specific number for an economic indicator and a date. For example, unemployment will be greater than X% by date Y. Or, real GDP will be down Z% by next year. Or, the dollar will be down X% vs. gold (or whatever) by 6 months from now.

I find that article utterly unconvincing.
 
I don't doubt that we have hit some hard times but from what I can still see people are still spending like crazy and it looks like we have a chance to still make an honest living.
 
What economic recession are they referring to? We happen to be motoring along here reasonably well. Then again, we don't listen to doom-peddlers...
 
I believe about 5 years after the Great Depression the stock market had recovered to pre-depression levels. Everything was pretty much back to normal by the 1940s. (That is if you consider a state of war to be normal. ;) )

When there is 10% unemployment, look around you, 90% of the country is still employed and buying stuff.

My house is paid off, business is booming, my son is doing fine in college, no loans yet. Perhaps my view of things is not typical, but I think the news media is the biggest problem. They make money selling the news if the outlook is sensationally gloomy and the masses seem somewhat suggestible.


Oh look, the guy who wrote the opinion piece is the CEO of a company peddling a related product. :rolleyes:

Hedgeye Risk Management is a premier on-line financial media company and a leading independent provider of real-time investmentresearch Focused exclusively on generating and delivering actionable investment ideas, the firm combines quantitative, bottoms-up and macro analysis with an emphasis on timing. The Hedgeye team features some of the world’s most regarded research analysts – united around a vision of independent, un-compromised real-time investment research as a service.
 
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:rolleyes:
I believe about 5 years after the Great Depression the stock market had recovered to pre-depression levels. Everything was pretty much back to normal by the 1940s. (That is if you consider a state of war to be normal. ;) )

When there is 10% unemployment, look around you, 90% of the country is still employed and buying stuff.

During the Great Depression, 75% of the country was employed and buying stuff.

The unemployment rate is misleading. The underemployment rate is more telling. 16.5%.
 
I just invested more money in my Vanguard account. Keep me posted on how the whole "being scared" thing works out for you doom-and-gloomers. ;)

- Scott
 
When there is 10% unemployment, look around you, 90% of the country is still employed and buying stuff.

I take offense to this!!!

10% of, let's say 200 million people, is 20 million people you are shucking off as irrelevant. That's rather heartless.

Sorry. Out of the people that I know (friends, family, acquaintances), most are hurting, some desperately. Only a few are not noticing the impact of this horrid economy. Prices are ridiculous and income is sparse. Not a good outlook for continued 'spending'. Spending is going to dry up once what is left of our incomes, if we have any, has evaporated paying bills and necessities.

And this unemployment figure doesn't include the underemployed (and that doesn't mean taking a 25% pay cut - sometimes it means taking a 95% pay cut), those who were not in the system (home business, self-employed, online business, etc. and so on). I'd put the under-un-and-unrecognized percentage at more like 15-20% (which is nearing 40 million human beings (and their wives, partners, children) that you don't care about).

Empathy? No wonder the world sucks balls.
 
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I take offense to this!!!

10% of, let's say 200 million people, is 20 million people you are shucking off as irrelevant. That's rather heartless.
.....

There is always some level of unemployment, but it's not always the same people. It's part of the normal work cycle. Aside from the chronically unemployed (which has nothing to do with the economy) people move on.
 
Right, that's 10% unemployed right now, it will be a largely different group of unemployed folks in six months. It's tough to be out-of-work (I was unemployed for three months once, living in a one-bedroom trailer with Ramen making up a major part of my diet), but for most people it is not a long-term state of affairs.
 
There is always some level of unemployment, but it's not always the same people. It's part of the normal work cycle. Aside from the chronically unemployed (which has nothing to do with the economy) people move on.

Except that this is a high level of unemployment and the numbers hide those who have dropped off over the past couple of years or aren't part of the normal employment/unemployment system/accounting. This drop-out in 2008 hit small businesses the hardest - by the millions (including me, friends, family, relations). There are strip malls and supermarkets that are abandoned. In my entire life I've never seen so many businesses going away and empty buildings sitting for years empty (even when Rizzo ****ed Philly in the 1970s it wasn't as bad). Of course, people still work and business goes on but the overall picture isn't rosy or pretty.

The estimate for finding employment, especially if you haven't been working long or for a while, is 30 months. That's nearly three years! I'm passing the 5 month point seeking employment and I'm no 'welcome, would you like fries with that' level of experience, skill, and intelligence. Where do you expect me to get money after what I have is gone? Printer? Bank with a mask? I'm too old to run around doing menial work for 20-somethings for menial pay. I'd rather die than humble myself like that for my many years of suffering and then hard, long, excessive work building a business. Welcome, I (and many, many others) deserve a break today (and tomorrow and the next 50 years) from being screwed by the rich mothers.
 
Something else which throws me off is the profusion of different takes on the subject from various 'experts'. Any day of the week you can check the op-ed pages of NY times, WSJ or whatever and find someone recommending austerity, someone else recommending increased govt spending, etc. Skeptics understand that you can't be an expert in everything. Hence when Joe Sixpack states that the WTC towers couldn't have been brought down by fire he is directed to the NIST report explaining the physics behind the collapse. I'm an electrical engineer, not an economist. Where is my NIST report on the economy? Who is the keeper of truth when it comes to explaining the recent financial collpase?


Your post describes one of the things about the information age that I find most interesting. I call it the "I don't know and you don't either" syndrome.

Any day, on any subject from terrorism, to the economy, to the gulf oil spill, to global warming, to any number of topics, one can find opinions from truly qualified experts that are 180 degree opposites of each other. These opinions are all valid due to the expertise that went into formulating them even if some of them will end up being wrong. How is a lay person supposed to determine what is most likely to occur or what the end result of a major event is going to be?

The answer is that it is impossible. Ultimately, we all believe what we want to believe based on our own experiences, politics, and world view. I can tell you one thing for certain. I don't waste one second of my life worrying about something like the gloom and doom written about in the linked article. Why? Because I have no way of knowing whether what the author claims is likely or unlikely. If I'm going to waste my time on something, I'd rather have it be something enjoyable.
 
Thesis statement: These are the economic End Times. We are going to witness the final economic collapse of the US economy.

Supporting evidence: http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/11/news/economy/economic_collapse_GDP_unemployment.fortune/

Please discuss.

Others disagree:

Warren Buffett in Berkshire's 2009 Annual Report said:
"Our country's future prosperity depends on an efficient and well-maintained rail system," said Buffett. "Conversely, America must grow and prosper for railroads to do well. Berkshire's $US 34 billion investment in BNSF is a huge bet on that company, CEO Mr Matt Rose and his team, and the rail industry. But, most important of all, it's an all-in wager on the economic future of the United States. I love these bets."
 

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