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Looks Like Indigenous People Own the Moon

TragicMonkey said:
Since nobody owns the moon there's nobody to stop anyone from going there to remove things left by other people. They could try to say it's theft but who would have jurisdiction? Also I'm pretty sure abandoned property can't be considered objects of theft.
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Nonsense. The Moon Belongs to Everyone!

 
novaphile said:
The Moon is bigger than Pluto, and by the "large enough to pull its own mass into a sphere" definition, qualifies as a planet in its own right.
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The Moon has enough mass to be a planet if it was alone; but it can't be, since it's a moon of a much larger planet. Despite the Moon's size relative to Earth, the two can't be considered a double-planet because the barycenter of the Earth/Moon system is still well inside the Earth, so it's definitely the Moon orbiting the Earth rather than the two orbiting each other.
 
ahhell said:
Nope, totally appropriate. When I learned of the Kuiper belt I figured out that pluto was not a planet but just another kuiper belt object. It took astronomy 20+ years to agree.
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Perhaps...[looks around slyly before lobbing the Molotov]...Pluto is a KBU which self-identifies as a planet? It's had over a century of lived-planet experience! [runs for it]
 
TragicMonkey said:
Perhaps...[looks around slyly before lobbing the Molotov]...Pluto is a KBU which self-identifies as a planet? It's had over a century of lived-planet experience! [runs for it]
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Obvious attempt at Cultural Appropriation. Natural Planets object. :whistling
 
theprestige said:
Hopefully indigenous people won't claim a proprietary religious interest in Moon Moon.

Also there is kind of a "dammit, Moon Moon!" vibe to the whole thing. Like of all the things the Maori and Navaho could be doing to participate in modern civilization, this is what they go with?
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The Navajo participate plenty in modern civilization. That some of them are making a ridiculous thing about the moon from religious reasons doesn't make them less modern than people voting for DeSantis or Trump because of god.
 
theprestige said:
Or, hear me out, Pluto is a planet in the Kuiper Belt. The fact that it was observed before the Kuiper Belt, and rated as a planet, cements its planetary status. Tyson's rationale is arbitrary and laughable. Don't be like Tyson.
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Ziggurat said:
That's like saying Mars is just another asteroid. And why do "planet" and Kuiper belt object" have to be mutually exclusive anyways?
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If mars was in the astroid belt you might have a point.

Pluto is just one of many kuiper belt objects. Obvious to the most casual of observers, it just took the world 20 years to admit it.
 
ahhell said:
If mars was in the astroid belt you might have a point.

Pluto is just one of many kuiper belt objects. Obvious to the most casual of observers, it just took the world 20 years to admit it.
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I consider Pluto to be a planet the same way there are thirteen members of the twelve Olympian gods: it's a courtesy extended for venerable service even if not technically merited. Sure, you could try to kick the extra member out, but it would be rude.
 
ahhell said:
If mars was in the astroid belt you might have a point.

Pluto is just one of many kuiper belt objects. Obvious to the most casual of observers, it just took the world 20 years to admit it.
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Nothing about being a Kuiper Belt object precludes also being a planet.

Also, the most casual of observers wouldn't even see Pluto, let alone the Kuiper Belt. Pluto was first observed in 1930, by very serious observers. And it wouldn't have been obvious to them that Pluto was a KBO, because the KB wasn't observed for another sixty years.

Pluto was a planet long before it was also confirmed to be a KBO.
 
ahhell said:
If mars was in the astroid belt you might have a point.
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You say that as if that's the only place asteroids are located.

Pluto is just one of many kuiper belt objects. Obvious to the most casual of observers, it just took the world 20 years to admit it.
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So what? If we find Planet X, which is hypothesized to be roughly as massive as Neptune and located in the Kuiper belt, would it not be a planet because of that? Why is being located in the Kuiper belt mutually exclusive with being a planet? That seems like a rather absurd criteria.

And so what if we've got a whole bunch of Kuiper belt planets? Why is that a problem? I don't see that it is.
 
theprestige said:
Thread drift. But we can bring it back around: Does the Navaho/Maori mythology also claim Pluto as sacred? Or does it only extend to celestial objects that can be observed using traditional neolithic methods?
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This is why the forum needs a "like" button.
 
Ziggurat said:
You say that as if that's the only place asteroids are located.



So what? If we find Planet X, which is hypothesized to be roughly as massive as Neptune and located in the Kuiper belt, would it not be a planet because of that? Why is being located in the Kuiper belt mutually exclusive with being a planet? That seems like a rather absurd criteria.

And so what if we've got a whole bunch of Kuiper belt planets? Why is that a problem? I don't see that it is.
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Pluto and every other object in the Kuiper belt cannot be planets by definition.

The definition of a planet adopted by the IAU says a planet must do three things:
1. It must orbit a star (in our cosmic neighborhood, the Sun).
2. It must be big enough to have enough gravity to force it into a spherical shape.
3. It must be big enough that its gravity has cleared away any other objects of a similar size near its orbit around the Sun.
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https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/planets/what-is-a-planet/
 
rjh01 said:
Pluto and every other object in the Kuiper belt cannot be planets by definition.
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Only under the new definition, which is stupid. The claim was in reference to a time before that new definition was created.
 
ahhell said:
...mars...
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Mars, you say?

Surely Mars is sacred to all of us whose lineage contains Roman ancestry! My distant ancestors worshipped that planet, and now some bastard is flying a helicopter around on it!

At least it's not crapping anywhere.
 
rjh01 said:
Pluto and every other object in the Kuiper belt cannot be planets by definition.



https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/planets/what-is-a-planet/
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Okay, so how many Pluto-sized objects are near Pluto's orbit? The Kuiper Belt is 20 AU wide - twenty times the distance from the Sun to the Earth. If you're taking the entire width of the Belt as Pluto's neighborhood, then everything from Mercury out to Uranus is a dwarf planet, because there's more than one of them in the same 20-AU neighborhood.

And Neptune is a dwarf planet too, since the Belt is attested to start at about that distance from the sun.

I think your concept of Pluto's orbital neighborhood is far too broad to be a sensible criterion.
 
Technically though Indigenous people do own the moon. We're all indigenous from somewhere and thus the moon should be the property of humanity. Down with those filthy aliens trying to claim our moon!
 
Lukraak_Sisser said:
Technically though Indigenous people do own the moon. We're all indigenous from somewhere and thus the moon should be the property of humanity. Down with those filthy aliens trying to claim our moon!
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Technically though indigenous has never been used in the sense you're forcing here. The Navajo and the Maori have legitimate concerns about colonialism and the erasure of local values and history. This is one of the rather more silly symptoms of those concerns. But making fun of the silliness isn't the same as erasing the plight of indigenous peoples in the face of industrial colonialism, the way you are doing.
 
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