• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Looking for statistics help

This is a great discussion, and why I mistrust my own (very!) rusty statistics. Is it a useful question to ask "how many trails to be reasonably sure the dowser detects water more often than chance would predict? Part of what you guys can help me see is what "reasonable" would mean.
 
For my particular dowser, I expect he'll say "huh - well, there are better dowsers than me and I've seen them work." But, as I said, this is a friend who wants to test himself and I think creating an acceptable test could be fun.
 
A thread started by Saskmick, who had recently discovered that he had the "talent" of dowsing, shows how tenacious dowsers can be about their beliefs in spite of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279035

He got himself banned from this forum for his inability to remain civil, and from the British Society of Dowsers, using the name "Mick", apparently for asking too many uncomfortable questions.

The ideomotor effect, which is responsible for the apparent demonstrable ability to find objects by dowsing, can be a very compelling phenomenon and convincingly paranormal for those who don't understand it. It should also be said that some dowsers who do understand the effect believe that their knowledge of the location of water is what is supernatural, but the physical movement of the rods is due to the ideomotor effect.

When testing, it is always important to have the dowser do preliminary trial runs during which he knows where the water is concealed to ensure that he is has no recourse to rationalize his failures during the double blind tests.
 
Last edited:
This is a great discussion, and why I mistrust my own (very!) rusty statistics. Is it a useful question to ask "how many trails to be reasonably sure the dowser detects water more often than chance would predict? Part of what you guys can help me see is what "reasonable" would mean.
For the JREF million dollar challenge the claimant is required to beat odds of 1000 to one in the preliminary test, and then repeat the feat in the final test (making total odds beaten of a million to one). For your purposes beating much lower odds would be sufficient to impress. Remember no dowsers tested using a properly blinded protocol has ever done even a little bit better than chance.

So you might start off with the 1 water container to 5 sand, and see if he can find the water. If he can't then he can't even beat odds of 5:1, and there's no point in testing further. If he can then repeating the test 3 times with success each time would raise the odds to 125:1, and it would be time to think about applying for one of the paranormal challenges.

ETA: Actually it's 6:1, not 5:1, isn't it. But you get the idea.
 
Last edited:
I'll include preliminary trials on the day of the test - and maybe some "dry runs" (:D) in advance. It's disappointing when someone like Saskmick gets angry when presented with results. I was once part of a group who tested the meme that you can pop corn with enough cell phones. The meme appeared on our local forum, and someone advertised for folks to meet in the park to test it. It was a bit of a party - we failed to pop corn and the original person who posted the meme was angry when our results were posted.
There's no need to get angry - saying "presence of skeptics makes it fail" can surely save any believer and let us all go merrily on our way.
 
I would recommend you share the finalised protocol in advance except for the actual positioning of the water bottles. There are people here who could help you dot the is and cross the ts to ensure a proper double blind test. The idea proposed by someone earlier of using a die to randomly select the location of the water filled vessel is a good idea.
 
That would be very helpful! I'll plan to do that (it may take a little time before I have a draft) and I'd welcome anyone who cares to critique the protocol.
My husband has suggested the dowser should be shown what is under all 6 buckets after each of his attempts is recorded so he personally knows I'm not cheating in my set-up. (Remember, this is for a friend and not intended to meet the million $ challenge).
What do you think?
 
Maybe not a good , idea. But, I will bow to those who are more familiar. A camera set up that can be reviewed at the end is more efficient.

Remember that it is important that the person(s) responsible for the arrangement of the jars on one side, and the testee and independent observer should be effectively separated during the course of the test.
 
That would be very helpful! I'll plan to do that (it may take a little time before I have a draft) and I'd welcome anyone who cares to critique the protocol.
My husband has suggested the dowser should be shown what is under all 6 buckets after each of his attempts is recorded so he personally knows I'm not cheating in my set-up. (Remember, this is for a friend and not intended to meet the million $ challenge).
What do you think?


I think the better practice would be to video record the entire thing and then play it back for him at the end. Otherwise, you're just giving him too many many opportunities to beg off during the test before it's complete.
 
You haven't gotten enough information yet.

These types of trials are highly subjective, not in terms of selection, but in terms of confidence. You need a framing protocol. If you don't use a framing protocol then the person being tested can simply say that it was a bad day (as Mojo predicted). Lack of such a protocol is one of the major cheats used for things like telepathy and clairvoyance.

Instead of buckets I would suggest either plastic or glass containers so that you can tell just by looking at it whether it contains sand or water. I like Loss Leader's suggestion of covering the containers with boxes.

Before you start, you place the containers on the ground at least three paces apart so that there is no confusing which box a hit is for. Then cover them with the boxes. The test subject can clearly see which one has the water. You ask them to check the boxes and see if they can get a hit. If they do then you can continue with the test. You repeat this framing test again when you complete the trial. In other words, if the test subject says that they can detect the water (under the same conditions) before the test and after the test then it would be difficult to argue that it was an off day.

The next problem you run into is bird-in-the-hand selection. Let's say you do five tries in a test run. Let's say the test subject knows the results of each try. After three negatives, the subject can say that they aren't feeling it and need a break. In other words, they can abort a negative run. But let's say that they got a match on the first try. They could continue and do the full test run knowing that they have one success in hand. The aborted negative/continued success is another major way of skewing the results.

This then leads into the issue of cheating. If you don't observe the test subject then they can cheat. However, if you watch the test subject while knowing where the positive sample is located then you might give unconscious cues that help them find it. If the test subject knows the results of each try then they can used aborted negative/continued success to get a higher score. However, if they don't know the result then they can claim that you are cheating. Or if they want to be nice they can claim that you made some alteration that you weren't aware would affect the result. This is where it gets complicated.

The easiest way to handle this would be to use a video camera to watch the test area. This way you could do the test run double blind (the person who knows the location of the sample is not present) without the possibility of cheating. After the test, you can both watch the video to make certain where the sample was located and that the test subject didn't cheat to try to find it. All you have to do is make sure that the containers are visible to the camera when placed and when uncovered. In other words, you don't stand in between the camera and the boxes where you could be doing something out of camera view. The test subject would also have to stay on the opposite side of the box.

If you don't have a video camera you can get a third person to help. One person sets the samples and then leaves. The test subject does the try with the second person present so there is no question of cheating. Then the test subject leaves and the second person checks the boxes and scores the try. Then the second person leaves before the boxes are set again. Typically they would go to the same location as the test subject to make certain that there was no peeking. So, neither the test subject nor the sample setter knows the score. The second person knows the score but does not know where the sample is located. The obvious way this would fail is if the test subject asks the scorer, "How am I doing so far?" The only way of avoiding this is to use a third person to observe the test subject during the sample setup and during the try. Then they both leave before it is scored. This keeps the person who knows the score from interacting with the test subject.

If you don't have extra people to help then you typically resort to disposable test samples. This is what they try to do in the Soapbox Derby except this doesn't actually work because the rules don't allow for swapping wheels that have bad bearings. The use of brand new wheels keeps the contestants from cheating. However, the lack of swapping means that you can end up with a wheel with a bad bearing and there is nothing you can do. In other words, the Soapbox Derby sometimes cheats against the contestants.

The disposable protocol works something like this. You make up a full set for each try. So, if you use six boxes and have five tries you need 30 boxes. You also need at least one more set for the framing protocol. So that is a minimum of 36 boxes if you use the framing boxes twice or 42 boxes if you use a different set for first and last frames. Basically, with each try you use a new set of boxes. Each set would have something like an identifying number so that you can see that they are all from the same set. For the try, the test subject has one sticker to put on a box. You use the same sticker for each set. You collect and set aside each set for each try. There is no reason to score since the sticker shows which was selected. In fact, you don't even have to worry about the double blind protocol if the tester can't tell which box has the positive sample (except for the framing sample which must be known). Then you simply score when you are done. This can be observed by the test subject.

To do another sample run you first put the same sticker on all the boxes in the same location. Then you change to a new sticker for the next test. It's better to use a sticker than using a mark from different colored felt tipped markers because it can be difficult to get the marks exactly the same. The stickers will all be the same. The idea of making the boxes anonymous again by using the same sticker in the same place on all boxes within a set is the Morgiana protocol from Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves.
 
Last edited:
Dowsing Test Prtocol

Hi everyone

I have (hopefully) attached my draft dowsing test protocol as a pdf. Please take a look. All comments are welcome. I was planning to propose that four "Hits" would constitute excellent evidence in support of dowsing as a real method for detecting a jug of water in the test. What do you think?

Some more details: I haven't sent this to the dowser yet. I was hoping to use a building as the retreat area - but it appears there is too much interference near the buildings we have handy. Please assume I find good places for the set-up and dowsing people to be isolated.
 

Attachments

I'd add one more non-blinded run after the test. This verifies that the dowser's abilities are still working, that nothing has happened since the test started to stop the dowsing from working. Just to try to stave off the inevitable excuse if he fails the test.
 
In addition to the dower pre and post testing that he can detect the water filled jug under each bucket, he should pre and post test that he does not detect a non filled jug under each bucket. Otherwise you risk another post test excuse.
 
Hi everyone

I have (hopefully) attached my draft dowsing test protocol as a pdf. Please take a look. All comments are welcome. I was planning to propose that four "Hits" would constitute excellent evidence in support of dowsing as a real method for detecting a jug of water in the test. What do you think?

Some more details: I haven't sent this to the dowser yet. I was hoping to use a building as the retreat area - but it appears there is too much interference near the buildings we have handy. Please assume I find good places for the set-up and dowsing people to be isolated.

I got one issue. What is the probability of getting between one and 10 guesses right? If you add up all 10 probabilities it should give you 100%. But I get about 85%. :jaw-dropp
 
Does anyone have more insight into how the Excel function works and if it is appropriate? I observe that, as I increase the probability of a Hit by chance the sum of the probabilities in my resulting chart approach 1 (and reach 1 if the probability of chance = 1)

Statistics was never my strong suit and I'm very rusty now - your comments are very helpful and I appreciate them all.
 
Oh - silly me. As a kind soul pointed out - my chart fails to include the probability of zero hits! :o When I add that, the probabilities do indeed sum to 100%
 
Here is a better idea I think. Obtain six containers to hold water and or sand. Hide them in cardboard boxes and set them on the lawn after the dowser agrees there is nothing to interfere with the test.

Tell the dowser that any number of the containers might contain water, do not say how many contain water, but it would be a good idea to have one that does. Don't allow the dowser or the data takers to observe the preparations of the test area. You should be out of sight during the test also as not to give anything away.

You and the dowser should be able to agree on how many he is able to get right to pass the test. Do several stages with a rearrangement of the sand and water containers each time.

Ranb

Change the boxes they go in also unless they are all perfectly the same in appearance - it is easy to remember even minor differences when you are in the foolin' people business!!!
 
Once the test is concluded and the results are being shown, be sure to look disappointed that your friend failed, and commiserate with them, giving them your support and friendship. That way, you stand a better chance of remaining friends :)
 
Thank you - no end zone dances, I agree. I don't want to lose a friend and, from what I've read, dowsers tend to be sincere. It is a compelling feeling when the rod "hits."
 

Back
Top Bottom