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Looking for Skeptics

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Hard to do when the clainmant will not accept any objective test.

IXP
 
IXP said:
Hard to do when the clainmant will not accept any objective test.

IXP
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Exactly the same test could have been carried out, only with cryptographic hash functions instead of people listening for changes. That would have been objective.
 
Loss Leader said:
Thanks for the link. This will not deter Flaccon in her beliefs. However, I think it should be noted by any and all "believers" that skeptics are willing to go to great lengths to interpret and test their claims in the most fair manner possible.
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And yet, these "believers" produce nothing. They drop out of threads they themselves started.
We hang on here, chasing our tails, quibbling over correct protocols and curtesies for these..."believers" (since I'll probably be cautioned by the Mods for the words I actually want to use...) that get us no where.
I'm tired of taking it on the chin.
Put up, or shut up, and stop jerking us around!
 
skullerello said:
And yet, these "believers" produce nothing. They drop out of threads they themselves started.
We hang on here, chasing our tails, quibbling over correct protocols and curtesies for these..."believers" (since I'll probably be cautioned by the Mods for the words I actually want to use...) that get us no where.
I'm tired of taking it on the chin.
Put up, or shut up, and stop jerking us around!
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It is an understandable reaction, but probably not appropriate for flaccon and those like her. She needs help.

On the other end of the spectrum are the Gary Schwartz's and ilk who know better and have no excuse and are (a) frauds in it for the money/attention and/or (b) dangerous in what they are peddling.

It gets a bit grey in the middle. If you've followed Jabba's threads on the Shroud of Turin and on proving immortality, you'll know that he is a sincere believer who is not out for money or fame and whose claims apparently do no harm to anyone. On the other hand, in making those claims he engages in the most cowardly of rudenesses in that mainly he implies incompetence and fraud on the part of professionals with whom he disagrees, and he ignores the arguments he can't refute, and he ignores the posters he considers not civil enough. I think treating Jabba either kindly or brusquely can be justified. I waffle, myself, but I lean far more to brusque than kind.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Exactly the same test could have been carried out, only with cryptographic hash functions instead of people listening for changes. That would have been objective.
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Very unlikely Flaccon would have accepted that as she probably wouldn't have understood it.
 
IXP said:
Hard to do when the clainmant will not accept any objective test.

IXP
Click to expand...

I was hoping she would have been informed that ASKE requires an objective pass/fail standard for all testing, including preliminary level, and without such a measurable standard her claim was untestable... and fails on that basis. I still admire their efforts, of course.
 
Often, the applicant does not understand what is necessary for a test. The testing organization cannot know what the applicant can do, so sometimes (like this time or Alderbank's visit) it requires some face time to figure out if there's any testable claim. In this case, there was not, but it was better for ASKE to check it out than to ignore such a claim.

Ward
 
Garrette said:
It is an understandable reaction, but probably not appropriate for flaccon and those like her. She needs help.

On the other end of the spectrum are the Gary Schwartz's and ilk who know better and have no excuse and are (a) frauds in it for the money/attention and/or (b) dangerous in what they are peddling.

It gets a bit grey in the middle. If you've followed Jabba's threads on the Shroud of Turin and on proving immortality, you'll know that he is a sincere believer who is not out for money or fame and whose claims apparently do no harm to anyone. On the other hand, in making those claims he engages in the most cowardly of rudenesses in that mainly he implies incompetence and fraud on the part of professionals with whom he disagrees, and he ignores the arguments he can't refute, and he ignores the posters he considers not civil enough. I think treating Jabba either kindly or brusquely can be justified. I waffle, myself, but I lean far more to brusque than kind.
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iirc, both Jabba and Flaccon have attempted to win cash with their nonsense
 
Filippo Lippi said:
iirc, both Jabba and Flaccon have attempted to win cash with their nonsense
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I don't know about Jabba's case, but if I recall correctly, flaccon was interested in the MDC not for the money, but for the validation. Same with the ASKE challenge.
 
The problem with flaccon was that before she took her web-site down she was offering healing and other services although she was only asking for travel money at that time.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Exactly the same test could have been carried out, only with cryptographic hash functions instead of people listening for changes. That would have been objective.
Click to expand...
IIRC we did that right here in this thread, and she insisted that the file changed even though the hash did not.

IXP
 
I missed that, IXP.
Is it possible flaccon never quite understood what hash marks are?
 
I think it's more that in flaccon's world when her perceptions say one thing and objective physical evidence says another it's her perceptions that must be believed.
 
I daresay you're right.
I know when I do those "Are these two colours different? " or "Are these two lines parallel?" tests, I often end up being disconcerted by just how very wrong my perceptions can be.

I wonder how flaccon has taken the results of ASKE's investigation.
 
pakeha said:
I missed that, IXP.
Is it possible flaccon never quite understood what hash marks are?
Click to expand...

pakeha said:
I daresay you're right.
I know when I do those "Are these two colours different? " or "Are these two lines parallel?" tests, I often end up being disconcerted by just how very wrong my perceptions can be.

I wonder how flaccon has taken the results of ASKE's investigation.
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You're such a kind person!

Only today someone told me that same thing, but I'm rapidly losing patience with flaccon. I was thinking of saying far more uncharitable things about why she ignored the hash numbers. :o
 
pakeha said:
Is it possible flaccon never quite understood what hash marks are?
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Yes; she seemed to have little understanding of scientific or technical concepts. This is quite common. It's easy to forget the amount of underlying basic knowledge needed to grasp some of these ideas. Someone with a long term background of magical thinking will be at a particular disadvantage.

I just have a nagging doubt about flaccon's motivation.
 
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