Looking for Skeptics

[asydhouse]

I for one think your contributions were highly relevant to this thread, aydhouse, and would not want them moved.

Thankyou, Pixel42!

I have always greatly respected you and your posts ever since I first came here in February 2012 and read the DowserDon thread. I was deeply impressed with the decency and clear-headed humanity displayed in that thread by yourself and several others, and I have an abiding love for JREF because of that.

Needless to say, since then I've discovered that not everyone who comes here is as respect worthy, but you had established the true strength of what JREF stands for in my mind, and they haven't managed to destroy that for me.

So your comment above means a lot to me.

 

[Pixel42]

I have to say that I tend to agree more with PartSkeptic than you over the drugs thing, though, asydhouse. Our brains have evolved to work optimally with a specific set of chemicals, and introducing strange chemicals into the mix will screw it up. A malfunctioning brain may produce interesting experiences but reading meaning into them is no more sensible than, well, than deliberately producing noisy electronic recordings and imagining you hear voices in the noise.

 

[asydhouse]

I have to say that I tend to agree more with PartSkeptic than you over the drugs thing, though, asydhouse. Our brains have evolved to work optimally with a specific set of chemicals, and introducing strange chemicals into the mix will screw it up. A malfunctioning brain may produce interesting experiences but reading meaning into them is no more sensible than, well, than deliberately producing noisy electronic recordings and imagining you hear voices in the noise.

That's true, as far as it goes. But here's where the propaganda has distorted the truth. Psychedelics are not causing malfunction so much as accessing functions of our brains that are otherwise impossible to experience at will... or would you say that dreaming is a malfunction? Also, DMT occurs naturally in our brains (and in all mammals, I believe I've read somewhere, and in a lot of plants). Things like LSD and psilocybin simply trigger altered balances of the chemicals our brains already use/produce, so it's not like crashing alcohol into the system. (And unless you are a teetotaller, you are not convinced by your own argument! )

But anyway it's the post-trip condition of the refreshed mind-body system that's the true benefit of psychedelics. I agree that taking the trips to be more than the fantasias of the brain is where people are deluding themselves, and that can be a long trip up the garden path of wild goose chasing, to mix metaphors, but in themselves the experiences can be beneficial and enlightening (in the sense that they shed light into your mind, as when the sun rises or comes out, and the world is transformed, and your mood alters etc... it can be a healing experience, as it was for me to finally put to rest the traumatic experiences I've described... which were not induced by drugs, but by the war on drug users, as I've described!)

All of which is not to say that I advocate casual ingesting of any drugs at all. In fact, I would urge everyone to leave alone almost all drugs, including alcohol!

Especially alcohol! And opiates, and uppers and downers... all trash to silt up your mind-body system. Best leave them alone altogether. They are a waste of time.




ETA I also do not advocate the casual use of psychedelics! They are special substances that should be given as much respect as you give to your own brain. Wisdom and knowledge and self-knowledge all need to be marshalled in deep preparation for such things. Otherwise you are a fool.

 

[PartSkeptic]

(snip)...
in fact, even the Indians are playing those games... some sincerely, some as corruptly as their politicians are playing their game...
(snip)...
"Learning about the culture"? India is corruption on all levels.
(snip)

Hence the meaninglessness of your reference to "drugs".

As to messing up your analytic capability: Albert Hoffmann, the discoverer of LSD, lived to be over 100 years old, and retained his chemist's analytical brain in articulate, healthy condition right up to the end. Perhaps the propaganda surrounding psychedelics has been a distorting influence in people's grasp of what that's all about, do you think?

I agree that India is very corrupt today. It is extremely bad, and many Indians in Africa in the past reflected an amoralistic attitude - and paid the price when "freedom" came. The caste system is now seen as amoral also, but it had it's roots in the specialization required for society - such as Guilds for craftsmen.

Many would say the USA is very corrupt (and I have experienced many examples) but that does not negate the good ideas and the good people there.

As to drugs and brain function - I don't think, I know.

I have a very analytical brain - so much so I never had a problem solving equations until I was 38 years old. When about 24 yrs old, after only a few puffs of a marijuana joint, I would have difficulty solving an equation for a day or two. One accidental ingestion of marijuana and I struggled to solve an equation for nearly a week.

My brain is now impaired due to aging. I struggle with words, and am slower. I nevertheless operate at a very high level, and only I know how much I am reduced in optimal functioning. It is barely noticeable to others.

I agree with Pixel42, your contributions have been interesting, and lucid. They helped add interest to a thread that I think has now died as far as flaccon is concerned. You know you personally need to hold onto physical reality - and you are succeeding - good for you.

 

[PartSkeptic]

But anyway it's the post-trip condition of the refreshed mind-body system that's the true benefit of psychedelics. I agree that taking the trips to be more than the fantasias of the brain is where people are deluding themselves, and that can be a long trip up the garden path of wild goose chasing, to mix metaphors, but in themselves the experiences can be beneficial and enlightening (in the sense that they shed light into your mind, as when the sun rises or comes out, and the world is transformed, and your mood alters etc... it can be a healing experience, as it was for me to finally put to rest the traumatic experiences I've described... which were not induced by drugs, but by the war on drug users, as I've described!)

I would add that it is possible to get "highs" without using drugs. Our minds appear to be wired so that these states can be accessed in various ways. The effects are long-lasting, beneficial and one does not feel the need to have another "fix". They are not as mind-bending as marijuana or LSD. Listening to music was one way I could do it. Good earphones, and the sixties heavy metal, or soul, or various melodies.

 

[wardenclyffe]

That's true, as far as it goes. But here's where the propaganda has distorted the truth. Psychedelics are not causing malfunction so much as accessing functions of our brains that are otherwise impossible to experience at will... or would you say that dreaming is a malfunction? Also, DMT occurs naturally in our brains (and in all mammals, I believe I've read somewhere, and in a lot of plants). Things like LSD and psilocybin simply trigger altered balances of the chemicals our brains already use/produce, so it's not like crashing alcohol into the system. (And unless you are a teetotaller, you are not convinced by your own argument! )

But anyway it's the post-trip condition of the refreshed mind-body system that's the true benefit of psychedelics. I agree that taking the trips to be more than the fantasias of the brain is where people are deluding themselves, and that can be a long trip up the garden path of wild goose chasing, to mix metaphors, but in themselves the experiences can be beneficial and enlightening (in the sense that they shed light into your mind, as when the sun rises or comes out, and the world is transformed, and your mood alters etc... it can be a healing experience, as it was for me to finally put to rest the traumatic experiences I've described... which were not induced by drugs, but by the war on drug users, as I've described!)

All of which is not to say that I advocate casual ingesting of any drugs at all. In fact, I would urge everyone to leave alone almost all drugs, including alcohol!

Especially alcohol! And opiates, and uppers and downers... all trash to silt up your mind-body system. Best leave them alone altogether. They are a waste of time.




ETA I also do not advocate the casual use of psychedelics! They are special substances that should be given as much respect as you give to your own brain. Wisdom and knowledge and self-knowledge all need to be marshalled in deep preparation for such things. Otherwise you are a fool.

I am a teetotaler, and I am convinced of the argument that Pixel42 makes. And I also work in creative fields and am told that I'm pretty out there.

Ward

 

[PixyMisa]

That's true, as far as it goes. But here's where the propaganda has distorted the truth. Psychedelics are not causing malfunction so much as accessing functions of our brains that are otherwise impossible to experience at will.

So they're causing malfunction?

 

[Pixel42]

(And unless you are a teetotaller, you are not convinced by your own argument! )

I'm not a teetotaller, but I'm still convinced that no meaning can be read into the experiences that are produced by making my brain malfunction. That doesn't mean such experiences can't be pleasurable, though care must always be taken to ensure no permanent damage is done.

 

[Apology]

But anyway it's the post-trip condition of the refreshed mind-body system that's the true benefit of psychedelics.

See, I have never experienced anything like this. For me, it was more like a battered body system and the befuddled mind. I always found psychedelic hangovers to be among the most brutal hangovers to be found, and believe me, I've had a lot of different types of hangovers in my time.

I also found absolutely nothing of value in my experiences with psychedelics other than a few fond memories and a certain wariness towards experimenting further with any drugs, including those legitimately prescribed by my doctor.

 

[asydhouse]

See, I have never experienced anything like this. For me, it was more like a battered body system and the befuddled mind. I always found psychedelic hangovers to be among the most brutal hangovers to be found, and believe me, I've had a lot of different types of hangovers in my time.

I also found absolutely nothing of value in my experiences with psychedelics other than a few fond memories and a certain wariness towards experimenting further with any drugs, including those legitimately prescribed by my doctor.

Well if you are mixing drugs, the other drugs may have been part of your hangover. Also, if you are running around instead of being mellow on the experience, you might strain your body. All I can say is that I have experienced a decidedly tonic afterglow. It has been well documented that changes in behaviour after LSD therapy has been long lasting and profoundly beneficial. It has helped alcoholics to ditch the alcohol, just for one example.

That's the difference between casual "recreational" (mistaken) use of these substances and considered (well prepared set and setting) use.

I see the propaganda has made it impossible for some of you to understand that this is no more a malfunction of the brain than is dreaming, or the results of fasting and meditation... within reason, in both non and drug scenarios.

Anyway, I didn't intend to get into the position of a proselytiser, so I don't really want to continue batting back. I don't want to get banned! (Another silly consequence of the current drug laws).

But I can't leave the statement that it is possible to get "highs" without drugs without saying, yes, of course! Music is such a mind-altering experience, which can lead to profound transformations and liberations of our most sublime states... but they are not substitutes for the possible states accessed through psychedelics.

And again, "meaning" is not the point, in a factual sense, of the psychedelic experience, any more than "meaning" is to be found in dreams... or rather, in exactly the same way as dreams may illuminate underlying emotional climate of the dreamer.

I maintain that I healed myself in the final analysis most fully through the fulfilment of a really good personal acid trip... which was the cherry on the cake of all the other work I had done.

Finally, PartSkeptic, I never meant to say that Indians are bad people... human nature, despite spectacular examples of disastrous faults, is the source of morality and empathy, and good nature is spread far and wide in our species, despite everything. I love the Indian people, and I mourn for their predicaments. I believe the young generation in India today is going to effect a renewal of their culture, through embracing secular world views and demanding an end to the old corrupt and sexist associations and practices. It's a long haul, but they are fired up for it.

As to the origins of the caste system, the current form of it which so corrupts the mind and heart and "soul" of the people was imposed by the conquering Aryans when they turned the indigent population of the subcontinent into the untouchables... that canker of social and mind control was so powerful a mechanism that it has persisted for thousands of years and still grips the place in its festering talons. And yet, despite that, you will find lovely people and good will every where... as long as you are not an Indian of a lower caste.

 

[Pup]

Well if you are mixing drugs, the other drugs may have been part of your hangover. Also, if you are running around instead of being mellow on the experience, you might strain your body. All I can say is that I have experienced a decidedly tonic afterglow. It has been well documented that changes in behaviour after LSD therapy has been long lasting and profoundly beneficial. It has helped alcoholics to ditch the alcohol, just for one example.

That's the difference between casual "recreational" (mistaken) use of these substances and considered (well prepared set and setting) use.

I see the propaganda has made it impossible for some of you to understand that this is no more a malfunction of the brain than is dreaming, or the results of fasting and meditation... within reason, in both non and drug scenarios.

Or do you think perhaps it's the difference between people? Not everyone is alike, and it seems a no-true-Scotsman fallacy to look for excuses of how people are not taking the right drugs correctly with the right mindset, if they're not experiencing the beneficial things you claim.

I've mentioned before on other threads, I had no interest in drugs in the years when most people get into them (teens-twenties) because I desperately wanted to feel normal, not different. It amazes me that anyone would enjoy feeling abnormal, but I accept that humans are different.

I was living under extreme stress then due to an abusive household, so panic attacks, depersonalization, dissociation, etc. were a daily experience, and had been for most of my life. I spent all my effort trying to obtain a sense of what average people must experience, psychologically. It took me decades to gradually heal and experience some days of what it's like to feel "normal," and learn to cope with the other days.

So I've never had an interest in deliberately inducing any altered states, good or bad, and have therefore never taken either recreational or prescribed mind-altering or emotion-altering drugs, avoid caffeine and for the first 40-some years of my life was a complete tea-totaller.

I can accept that people are different and that for some, drugs give them an experience they desire. It's odd, though, that despite all the insight and open-mindedness they claim that drugs have given them, not all can do the same and accept that some other people are different from them, and that someone like me would genuinely not want drugs, not due to some puritanical brainwashing, but for genuine, articulable, reasons.

 

[marplots]

The normal/abnormal framing is bogus. One might as well say they avoid sex because it engages them physically and mentally and produces an "abnormal" condition.

You don't abandon yourself entirely while on drugs (except maybe at the coma level). It's more akin to riding a rollercoaster or slipping into a sauna (depending on the drug). Whatever makes you, you goes along for the ride.

"I didn't like the experience" is reason enough to not take drugs, the normal/abnormal bit just paints users as abnormal.

 

[asydhouse]

I do agree with everything you have said, Pup. I'm sure you also now realise that the concept of a "normal" human being is a meaningless concept (your putting the word in quotes tells us as much).

In fact, the same person will have different reactions on different occasions, as well as having sort of "microclimates" of experience within a single trip... part of the intellectual pleasures associated with contemplating the trips.

If these things were legal, a lot of counterproductive social pressures would be relieved, and people could take a far more tailored approach to the issues of personal choices in these matters.

I also made a choice not to use "drugs" at a young age, and it was only through associating with many people who were experimenting, and observing their beneficial outcomes that allowed me to eventually sample various experiences. Perhaps it was my cautious approach that enabled me to experience the sort of tonic outcomes I mentioned before.

Whatever, the illegality is a huge barrier to our species coming to mature terms with these issues, and gaining enough sound data to start drawing useful conclusions. I regard it as one of the biggest tragedies of contemporary civilisation. It is my opinion that a lot of the other problems we face in society would have been mitigated if only the whole thing had not been ripped from the hands of the scientists and driven underground.

Therapy with MDMA would have shortened the decades you spent recovering from your childhood experiences, for instance. My marriage was saved (I should say renewed) by our mutual experiences with it.

Our politicians are ignorant children in these matters.


ETA Marplots posted while I was writing that, and he expresses my own thoughts well. We here are in better company than most for finding people able to think without prejudice, but even so this tends to be a topic which raises a fog of powerful presuppositions and misapprehensions, on both sides of the story. It can be difficult to think dispassionately about it all.

 

[TjW]

As with religion, the automatic respect accorded to "non drug" study of mysticism is unwarranted. And the automatic dismissal of drugs as being immoral or what have you is a hangover from Puritan religious influence in our own flawed culture.

I think you'll find that on this particular forum, there's very little automatic respect for mysticism/religion, with or without drugs.

 

[asydhouse]

I think you'll find that on this particular forum, there's very little automatic respect for mysticism/religion, with or without drugs.

Haha! Yes of course, that's why I'm here! I was getting expansive and talking about our whole culture's default stance that puritanism is a virtue, along with pain and that. It is another tragedy that religions are accorded so much automatic respect and deference. Clergy get included on panels of "worthy men" to discuss important issues, but they really don't deserve to be there.

One of the pleasures of being here in JREF is that one can say such things without fear of being tarred and feathered.

 

[Apology]

I can accept that people are different and that for some, drugs give them an experience they desire. It's odd, though, that despite all the insight and open-mindedness they claim that drugs have given them, not all can do the same and accept that some other people are different from them, and that someone like me would genuinely not want drugs, not due to some puritanical brainwashing, but for genuine, articulable, reasons.

I agree with you and know exactly where you are coming from, Pup. If someone had told me 20 years ago that I'd become a teetotaler and even go to great lengths to avoid having to take any more drugs, I'd have thought they were crazy and laughed in their face, yet here I am. There are still people who don't understand why I'd be willing to go through a series of painful surgeries to avoid having to take drugs on a daily basis, and joke around about how they'd simply LOVE to have the same prescriptions that I do. Even when I try to explain it, they still don't seem to understand.

I keep my drugs locked up in a safe now. I'm really looking forward to not having to take them any more except for the occasional flare-up. Can't wait.

 

[wardenclyffe]

This conversation probably deserves its own thread and this one should be left for when/if flaccon returns. No need to bury the topic here where no one except those already involved in the thread will find it.

Ward

 

[SezMe]

I for one think your contributions were highly relevant to this thread, aydhouse, and would not want them moved.

I know this part of the conversation has moved on but I just wanted to add my voice in agreement.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Back to the topic of pareidolia / apophenia:

 

[dlorde]

Having now read the whole thread (some kind of strange compulsion, although it was interesting - and entertaining in parts), and listened to all the audio that was posted, count me among all those who heard assorted vague noises, but nothing remotely like speech. I've heard EVP samples before, and can understand how people could make out words from them, but not flaccon's samples.

To put it all in some kind of perspective, I read - some while ago - that a study suggested that around 2% of the population admits to hearing disembodied voices (no recordings required). Some find them troublesome and seek help, but the majority accept them and get on with life.

As has already been said, pareidolia is different, but it does suggest to me that someone with this much confusion over pareidoliac voices probably has some more serious underlying problems.

Anyhow, much thanks to all contributors, especially asydhouse and the intrepid Alderbank.