Looking for Skeptics

[jsfisher]

Let me add two things to the protocol:

Thing #1: It should be obvious, but lest some forget: This is an informal test. We assume the parties involved will be acting in good faith, so many of the safe-guards against out-right cheating are absent, but there are still some controls to lessen the possibility of unintentional cues that could corrupt the test results.

Thing #2: Flaccon should write down what she hears on the recording. Alderbank should take what she writes down and without looking at it secret it away for later comparison with what the sister said she heard.

 

[marplots]

I know.

I feel like we have this huge mass of scientific understanding, coupled with an organizational experience with woo-busting at our disposal. And flaccon doesn't see this train bearing down on her.

Even if her beliefs are robust and remain unshaken, there's a human element, a social dimension, to consider. Is it possible for us to be gentle without surrender? Does "nice" just go out the window in service to our principles? And I'll grant that nice has been largely the recipe so far. Does anyone think there won't come a point where nice evaporates?

Because I haven't followed this sort of thing before, I'm curious and interested. But I'm getting ethical twinges. What's the best outcome?

 

[Alderbank]

I meant cruel to flaccon.

Remember the 'E' in JREF.

I though it was a positive sign when yesterday flaccon began doing her own testing and discovered for herself whether or not some of her assumptions could be confirmed experimentally, also that she reported her findings quite impartially to us. I would like to encourage her to walk further down the road of self-testing and finding out for herself, and looking for evidence before believing.


I don't think it is cruel to me at all (yet!) but I do feel sorry for posters in distant time zones who must be beginning to suffer sleep deprivation.

 

[aggle-rithm]

To whom? I think it's already cruel to Alderbank. I'm starting to feel like I'm being mentally tortured myself.

Or, as my brother once quipped, "I feel like Spock after a bad Vulcan mind meld."

 

[aggle-rithm]

I don't think it is cruel to me at all (yet!) but I do feel sorry for posters in distant time zones who must be beginning to suffer sleep deprivation.

No sleep deprivation yet, but I think I'm coming down with a bad case of pareidolia. Hopefully, it's only the 24-hour kind.

 

[Alderbank]

Let me add two things to the protocol:

Thing #1: It should be obvious, but lest some forget: This is an informal test. We assume the parties involved will be acting in good faith, so many of the safe-guards against out-right cheating are absent, but there are still some controls to lessen the possibility of unintentional cues that could corrupt the test results.

Thing #2: Flaccon should write down what she hears on the recording. Alderbank should take what she writes down and without looking at it secret it away for later comparison with what the sister said she heard.

No. That is not respectful and not the way I work. I will ask her for it though.

 

[Pixel42]

Because I haven't followed this sort of thing before, I'm curious and interested. But I'm getting ethical twinges. What's the best outcome?

I regret my facetiousness because I used to feel the same, but the fact of the matter is that - based on many years of reading and occasionally contributing to similar threads - it is almost certain that flaccon will go away as utterly convinced of her moral superiority to us and of her access to special knowledge as she arrived. True believers are impervious to reason, and nothing we say will dent her certainty that she is right and we are wrong. It's Black Knight syndrome at its most frustrating. In fact she'll be sorry for us for failing to be convinced by what to her seems so obvious.

I know there are posters who came here as believers, listened to reason, and have expressed gratitude for being freed from their superstitions. That's the best outcome, and it's in hope of it that I keep trying with people like flaccon and Robin1. But I've never actually seen it happen.

 

[Ladewig]

For some reason this thread keeps reminding me of Duncan Bannatyne's story The Dog Ate My Trainers http://ridgewaymarketeer.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/the-dog-ate-my-trainers/

I emphatically agree.
Although in this case, it might be more accurate to say "spirits told my dog to eat my athletic shoes."

No, no and no. If you believe that any of these will happen then you do not understand anything that is being said

After 32 pages, I have finally read something that leads me to believe the thread can have a happy ending. I am still baffled as to why people are constructing numbered protocol lists. None of those steps will be followed by the applicant, not even the first step. To flaccon, this is all just a way to get a person to listen to her tapes and marvel at the clarity of the voices.

 

[Alderbank]

Alderbank,

If you actually do get a protocol agreed upon, and you do make the visit to flaccon, do you also intend to listen to some of her recordings that have "clear unmistakable" messages?

You seem to have indicated that you would not, but I think there is some value in doing so, because she might be trying to perpetrate a hoax, and it would be interesting to see if there is clear speech on them.

IXP

I have wondered that myself, IXP. I think I will have to listen to them whether I want to or not. I have refused up to now because I don't think that my opinion of anything has any value in this investigation. Also I don't want to be added to the list of witnesses or finish up on the website as 'JREF investigator baffled' (wrong in so many ways). Clear speech - so what? I can think of a dozen ways in which I could start with an 'empty' file and magic a sound file into it, rather like an IT version of psychic surgery.

Hoax is something I can't really visualize. Give me some examples so I can watch out for them.

 

[jsfisher]

No. That is not respectful and not the way I work. I will ask her for it though.

My word choice may have been misleading. I meant that flaccon would write down what she heard for each of the three recordings. She'd give you what she wrote, and you would hold it, but conceal it from the sister while the sister was listening to the recordings.

Nothing underhanded. Just a record of what flaccon heard to compare with what the sister heard after all the listening is over.

 

[Alderbank]

My mistake then js. Yes, I'll collect all the evidence I can including anything which at the time seems irrelevant

If it happens

 

[Pixel42]

I think I will have to listen to them whether I want to or not.

I don't think there's any problem with you listening to them, as long as you make it clear that it's only the objective test that is meaningful. Depending on what you hear you may wish to express an opinion, but you're not obliged to.

 

[IXP]

I have wondered that myself, IXP. I think I will have to listen to them whether I want to or not. I have refused up to now because I don't think that my opinion of anything has any value in this investigation. Also I don't want to be added to the list of witnesses or finish up on the website as 'JREF investigator baffled' (wrong in so many ways). Clear speech - so what? I can think of a dozen ways in which I could start with an 'empty' file and magic a sound file into it, rather like an IT version of psychic surgery.

Hoax is something I can't really visualize. Give me some examples so I can watch out for them.

Two things make me think a hoax is possible, though I don't consider it likely.

1. Her insistance that someone come to her to listen, and her conviction that that person will be impressed.

2. Her report that the one person who did not think there were spirits on the recording accused her of manipulating it.

When I "heard" speech on the recording that was uploaded, I would never say that it was clear and unmistakable. I had to suspend disbelief and really work at it to make my brain interpret the sounds as spoken words. So I would like to hear someone else's opionion of what her recording do sound like on her equipment.

IXP

 

[PartSkeptic]

This would be quite funny if it wasn't so frustrating.

She didn't even bother to answer Alderbank's question as to when would be a suitable time for him come over, when both she and her daughter can be present. I'm not sure she's even understood that tonight's meeting is off.

Unbelievable.

I don't think there's any problem with you listening to them, as long as you make it clear that it's only the objective test that is meaningful. Depending on what you hear you may wish to express an opinion, but you're not obliged to.

I think flaccon is being mischievous. Her website, her avoidance of questions, changing her story – all the suspicions voiced many times. She says she is skint and then is willing to make big bets. The supernatural may exist, and if so, flaccon may be under the influence of a dark force. Why does the Bishop not want to deal with her?

You guys have been patient and helpful, but flaccon is no DowserDon.

While I am curious to see where this goes, I doubt there will be even limited success.

For me the thread has given me further insight.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

I think flaccon is being mischievous. Her website, her avoidance of questions, changing her story – all the suspicions voiced many times. She says she is skint and then is willing to make big bets. The supernatural may exist, and if so, flaccon may be under the influence of a dark force. Why does the Bishop not want to deal with her?

You guys have been patient and helpful, but flaccon is no DowserDon.

While I am curious to see where this goes, I doubt there will be even limited success.

For me the thread has given me further insight.

There is no evidence of the existence of a "dark force", and I don't see what's special about DowserDon. ???

 

[Alderbank]

When I "heard" speech on the recording that was uploaded, I would never say that it was clear and unmistakable. I had to suspend disbelief and really work at it to make my brain interpret the sounds as spoken words. So I would like to hear someone else's opionion of what her recording do sound like on her equipment.

IXP

IXP, that sounds a good reason with a purpose. I'll ask to hear that one through her system. Did the one where you heard muffled words have a name or identifier? (I'm sure it is in the thread but the thought of going back through twelve hundred posts makes my head hurt)

 

[Cassidy]

Have you not read the protocol? Kate takes an essential part in the test. She is the friend and if you don't have someone who you agree is a suitable, trusted friend then there is no test.

I can't do Wednesday now but if Kate can't do tonight after all, would Tuesday (tomorrow), Thursday or Friday be possible instead?

Please confirm a suitable day for the test and confirm that you have read the protocol and agree with it.

Kate cannot make it until gone 8, it's too late. Hoping for tomorrow (will need to check with Kate at 7.30 tonight) I have a person now, reading the protocol, if Kate cannot make it tomorrow, this next person may.

 

[Pixel42]

I don't see what's special about DowserDon. ???

DowserDon was very unusual (unique in my experience) amongst MDC applicants in not only understanding the need for objective testing but seeing the sense in doing a dry run of his proposed test protocol before pursuing his application. He was, however, completely typical in refusing to accept the result and desperately trying to explain it away.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

6. flaccon leaves and the friend is brought in.

It's a bit late for this suggestion, but the leaving and coming in should, if possible, be done without flaccon and her daughter having any contact, not even seeing each other.

 

[jsfisher]

Kate cannot make it until gone 8, it's too late. Hoping for tomorrow (will need to check with Kate at 7.30 tonight) I have a person now, reading the protocol, if Kate cannot make it tomorrow, this next person may.

flaccon,
Take your time. There is no point rushing this. Get your ducks all in a run, as the saying goes, then arrange for Alderbank's visit.