Looking for Skeptics

[SezMe]

Great idea. I like it. When flaccon listens to your file you can re-check it as another check on whether the file was changed.

No it's not. It's a lousy idea. You have no reason to believe that flaccon will agree that a file is the same or different, that hash marks will make one whit of difference to her delusion or that she hears what anyone else hears.

We're at 103 pages. Nothing has moved since about page 2.

Please do not play file games with flaccon. It will go nowhere and you will only facilitate her continued fantasy. I'm serious; please just leave her alone here. She needs help and, unfortunately, it won't come about through logical testing.

 

[SezMe]

ETA: Again, referring to this file of white noise created by calebprime https://app.box.com/s/5e2m272jsdrf89dvxzxy All you need to do is click to download it, and let me know when you have listened to it.

And what do you realistically expect to happen? That flaccon will suddenly say, "OMG! Pareidolia!" We all know that isn't going to happen. It's a fool's errand - don't pursue it.

 

[laca]

Please do not play file games with flaccon. It will go nowhere and you will only facilitate her continued fantasy. I'm serious; please just leave her alone here. She needs help and, unfortunately, it won't come about through logical testing.

While I agree that she will almost certainly not succumb to reason and logic, I must wonder... Does exposing her to reason and logic actually make things worse? How could it be confirming her delusions? If it is, is there anything that wouldn't? Isn't it likely that if we stop engaging her in discussion she'll consider that a resounding victory?

 

[Orphia Nay]

No, it doesn't, but I think she's now locked into her latest revelation of what the spirits can do. Namely, change files.

All along, flaccon has been convinced that if we will just listen to what she has we will all be convinced. She has not yet comprehended what objectivity really means, and so the latest "files change" is just her latest self-convincing proof to her. Why cannot we all not just see that?

So, we should just send her files with sufficiently loud silence, she'll listen to them, tell us they have changed, and we will all be convinced. Of course, we have been over this loop before. We did, she did, they weren't, and we aren't.



Interesting, but flaccon doesn't understand "claim", so "evidence of the claim" is still a distant step.

Hmmm, actually, flaccon claimed the files change ages ago and this was proved wrong.

She seems to have forgotten that, and is now expecting us to play along again.

Perhaps she will eventually catch up to the concept of pareidolia.


Flaccon, your files did not change. We don't need to do the same test again.

 

[Donn]

While I agree that she will almost certainly not succumb to reason and logic, I must wonder... Does exposing her to reason and logic actually make things worse?

I don't know.
From what I've experienced, she sometimes tries logic and always fails. Everything about her (writing) is fabulist and weirdly off.
I have not seen an approach work yet. All seem to hit the same wall of incomprehension.

How could it be confirming her delusions?

I think this is easy: from her pov, all these vaunted skeptics cannot make one chip in her armour. She can *honestly say that they make no sense, they get angry quickly, they keep pushing mere psychology onto her, the have closed minds. etc.

(* from her pov)

If it is, is there anything that wouldn't? Isn't it likely that if we stop engaging her in discussion she'll consider that a resounding victory?

I really don't know what could pull her from her nosedive. I think the little bit we are seeing here is but the tip.
Only someone close to her in the meat world would have a chance - someone with great patience

As to the victory thing.. I have felt this way before. In the end, the notion of the final word is a chimera. I think the entire thread is the testament to our efforts and creative approaches.

It's not about defeating the Jabberwocky, it's about leaving an educational trail.

You know, I might be totally wrong about this; I'll keep reading the thread to see how it goes.

 

[Mojo]

While I agree that she will almost certainly not succumb to reason and logic, I must wonder... Does exposing her to reason and logic actually make things worse?

People in that situation have a tendency to 'circle the wagons'.

 

[Cassidy]

No one has explained as to why jsfishers "VolNorm" file has noticeable interferences, including reducing to almost silent at 21 seconds. In the background, the rain fall was heavy and the ceiling fan was whirring away constantly. For what reason did the original file reduce to almost silent at 21 seconds? I think this is a valid point to make. Only 3 people were involved with this informal test, js, who generated and described the contents of the file, Mr Roberts and myself who received a copy of the file. Mr Roberts and myself heard the "constant" noise that steadily ran from beginning to end. It is fair to say that no one else here has heard the "before & after" effects of that file.

Anything I have ever uploaded here, has been requested, if I don't upload requestes, it is perceived that I am not conforming. My explaining that I am not actually uploading pre-recorded voices, hence quality loss, gets overlooked. I do keep saying that it is of no use uploading anything to anywhere from this machine. It is also pointless of anybody uploading anything to Box.com. Whilst I am grateful that people are taking the time to oblige requests, most of these requests were not actually requested by myself. I requested someone send to me a copy of a recording to my email address (on normal volume) no one did, other than Mr Roberts. The results were a success. I checked this again on a new laptop and again the results were a success. Js was kind enough to repeat this method for me, and the results were a success. I feel I am not allowed to test this again in case of being correct.

I was asked to prove that these voices are not paredolia, and I accepted that I cannot prove this, and therefore have suggested (several times) that I can only eliminate paredolia if I stop using the voices as some sort of proof.

Sezme, the letter written by my GP confirms a few things, if only that I am in constant contact with him. The GP is aware of every move I make, including starting this thread. If he considered me "deluded" he would have tried taking me out doing this, and not suggest that I "keep the ball rolling"

 

[Cassidy]

No, you threatend to flounce off, but came back. I bent over backwards by downloading and installing and testing the software you are using, yet you could not bring yourself to answer a single question. You continue to use a crapware app for your spirit guests, and it truly is crapware, refuse to say if other software exhibits the same behaviour, and are generally unresponsive to questions. You will claim this is a result of your supposed three week outage, but you were doing the same beforehand, so I am not buying.

Is that you Sherlock? Of course not. You don't want to.
Quite apart from the fact that we are awash with audio files here, I will send you any of my test files. I can produce a silence file from Youcam. Box has all of the audio files in it. I fail to see how your claim of no audio files is anything but avoidance

We have all heard. I can't beleive you have not noticed. It must be intentional.

I would give it a go also, but you may not like my conditions.

Sorry abaddon, but I haven't ever threatened to flounce off. I have suggested to stop posting due to the upset this thread is causing. I am not here to take anything personal. However I am human and I spit a few feathers now and then, but I will not threaten flouncing off from here, I like it here and I like the people here. I accept without doubt that this whole situation is bizarre, but everything I have explained or described has been to the best of my ability.

 

[scrappy]

Sorry abaddon, but I haven't ever threatened to flounce off. I have suggested to stop posting due to the upset this thread is causing. I am not here to take anything personal. However I am human and I spit a few feathers now and then, but I will not threaten flouncing off from here, I like it here and I like the people here. I accept without doubt that this whole situation is bizarre, but everything I have explained or described has been to the best of my ability.

I can vouch for that.

 

[Daylightstar]

... My explaining that I am not actually uploading pre-recorded voices, hence quality loss, gets overlooked. ...

No it does not get overlooked. The explanation of the incorrectness of that "quality loss" statement gets implicitly rejected by you.

... I have asked a few friends to check the quality, and it is reported as poor. ...

^{Hilite by Daylightstar}
Poor in what way?

Poor in what way, flaccon.

 

[Daylightstar]

...
Sezme, the letter written by my GP confirms a few things, if only that I am in constant contact with him. ...

The letter of which you blotted out a number of lines.

It's not clear from that letter at all, what your GP (if this GP really did write that letter of course) confirms or even states about your situation.

That letter, as far as shown. does not support you in any way whatsoever.

 

[desertgal]

While I agree that she will almost certainly not succumb to reason and logic, I must wonder... Does exposing her to reason and logic actually make things worse? How could it be confirming her delusions? If it is, is there anything that wouldn't? Isn't it likely that if we stop engaging her in discussion she'll consider that a resounding victory?

No, not confirming her delusions, you're right...but certainly making her cling more tightly to them. Trust me, I've been inside similar delusions personally. She may consider it a resounding victory, that's true...but the reality is it would be an effort on our parts to not feed the delusion.

At the beginning, there's always the hope that the woo will be, as jsfisher noted, one of the rare ones who can be reached with logic. 100 pages on, judging by her replies, it's becoming obvious flaccon isn't one of hose rare birds. Nor is scrappy, who seems to have similar issues. Maybe it's time to call it a day, in the best interest of flaccon, as opposed to repeating the same fruitless attempts?

...
Sezme, the letter written by my GP confirms a few things, if only that I am in constant contact with him. ...

The letter of which you blotted out a number of lines.

It's not clear from that letter at all, what your GP (if this GP really did write that letter of course) confirms or even states about your situation.

That letter, as far as shown. does not support you in any way whatsoever.

The letter also doesn't confirm, in any way, that flaccon is "in constant contact" with him. She may be, but it's doubtful, and really beside the point, since her GP doesn't appear to be a mental health professional. Another irrelevant delusion.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Flaccon, the recordings don't change. You just think they do. That's what happens with pareidolia. We "hear" what we expect or want to hear, unless we're being very, very careful. You want and expect the recordings to change, so you imagine they do. It's very simple really, and interesting. Jsfisher's recording did not change. We have proof.

 

[laca]

I think this is easy: from her pov, all these vaunted skeptics cannot make one chip in her armour. She can *honestly say that they make no sense, they get angry quickly, they keep pushing mere psychology onto her, the have closed minds. etc.

(* from her pov)

I'm not sure how she can claim that we get angry quickly... It all started out very civilized. Only after dozens (no, I have not checked, could be less or even more) of pages of the same nonsense did the snark start. And it wasn't that bad even then.

It's not about defeating the Jabberwocky, it's about leaving an educational trail.

The trail is cold, and it has been since about page 5.

You know, I might be totally wrong about this; I'll keep reading the thread to see how it goes.

Yeah, me too.

 

[laca]

People in that situation have a tendency to 'circle the wagons'.

You mean like constant (valid?) criticism only reinforces their beliefs? Akin to blind faith? I guess that's a possibility. It could also be that apparent capitulation is worse in that regard.

 

[laca]

No one has explained as to why jsfishers "VolNorm" file has noticeable interferences,

It doesn't, for crying out loud. That's your claim and not even have you failed to provide evidence to that effect, the available evidence suggests the exact opposite.

 

[laca]

No, not confirming her delusions, you're right...but certainly making her cling more tightly to them. Trust me, I've been inside similar delusions personally. She may consider it a resounding victory, that's true...but the reality is it would be an effort on our parts to not feed the delusion.

But that's my question exactly. How are we feeding the delusion by trying to help her devise a test to confirm or dispel the delusion? Any "feeding" effect must surely be a byproduct of an already malfunctioning thought process. Is there a way to know or at least be reasonably certain of the effects of most anything in such a case?

At the beginning, there's always the hope that the woo will be, as jsfisher noted, one of the rare ones who can be reached with logic. 100 pages on, judging by her replies, it's becoming obvious flaccon isn't one of hose rare birds. Nor is scrappy, who seems to have similar issues. Maybe it's time to call it a day, in the best interest of flaccon, as opposed to repeating the same fruitless attempts?

Could be. I'm just not sure it is. Mojo's point of the siege mentality is valid, although I don't feel the level of animosity is nearly enough for something like that to build on, at least not reasonably. And once we acknowledge that we can't expect reasonable responses to our attempts, I think the only reason to stop would be for our own sake: simply because it's futile and everyone has limited time or perhaps to avoid responsibility in case of a really bad outcome. Which – and please correct me if I'm wrong – is a real possibility.

 

[Alderbank]

Anything I have ever uploaded here, has been requested, if I don't upload requestes, it is perceived that I am not conforming. My explaining that I am not actually uploading pre-recorded voices, hence quality loss, gets overlooked. I do keep saying that it is of no use uploading anything to anywhere from this machine. It is also pointless of anybody uploading anything to Box.com. Whilst I am grateful that people are taking the time to oblige requests, most of these requests were not actually requested by myself. I requested someone send to me a copy of a recording to my email address (on normal volume) no one did, other than Mr Roberts. The results were a success. I checked this again on a new laptop and again the results were a success. Js was kind enough to repeat this method for me, and the results were a success. I feel I am not allowed to test this again in case of being correct.

Success is really important and we should build on success. I've been back through this thread (not an easy thing to do!) and I can't find this success at all. Could you post a link please?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'success'. If I take what you say very simply and literally you are saying 'I asked for a file and two people succeeded in sending one to me'. Is that all you are saying?

What exactly is it that you feel you are not allowed to test again? and who won't allow it? If you mean the spirits then I can't comment. If you mean anyone on this thread then you are certainly mistaken. No-one has said you are not allowed to do anything. You might have misunderstood where someone has said (in their opinion) it's not worth doing something again or there is no point, but they might be the one who has misunderstood.

Again, can you post a link, please?

 

[Pup]

I was asked to prove that these voices are not paredolia, and I accepted that I cannot prove this, and therefore have suggested (several times) that I can only eliminate paredolia if I stop using the voices as some sort of proof.

That doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "eliminate"? People here are using it in the sense of "rule out" or "disprove as a possibility."

I think you're trying to say that you can't prove the voices aren't caused by paredolia, so the only way to get people to stop saying that's the explanation (i.e. to "eliminate" paredolia) is to stop claiming the voices are proof of spirits.

That's just a guess, though. If it's right, that's not what anyone else here has meant by the word "eliminate."

Do you understand what they mean by it? What do you mean by it, in the sentence quoted above?

 

[Pixel42]

I think you're trying to say that you can't prove the voices aren't caused by paredolia, so the only way to get people to stop saying that's the explanation (i.e. to "eliminate" paredolia) is to stop claiming the voices are proof of spirits.

No, she's saying that if a file is changed by the spirits by introducing sounds other than words then we can't explain that by pareidolia. She thinks she's shown that they have done just that. She hasn't, of course, but that's what she's been trying to do.