Looking For A Few Good Men

[Azure]

So what? I'm a disabled Vietnam veteran and you don't hesitate to belittle me or my assertions. You'll also notice that I didn't make excuses for My Lai (the prime war crime of my war), so why should I accept excuses from someone who is apparently willing to help cover up a crime to aid his brothers in arms?

I belittle your political opinion, yes, because I find it pathetic, ridiculous and largely annoying.

I DO NOT belittle your military service, or the fact that you were in Vietnam. I respect you highly for it, and when you can get away from the "I hate Bush" attitude, I actually enjoy reading your comments.

I have never insulted your military service, or the fact that you served, as Tony seems to like doing.

 

[Mephisto]

Am I supposed to be wounded by this? I don't know whether to laugh, or feel sorry for you. Such Garbage that somehow passes as intelligent debate.

You might want to first establish that a crime has been commited, before you accuse me of such nonsense. Somehow I thought that would be apparent, especially on a skeptics forum.

I must have really hit a nerve for you to come out with something like this.

Good

Hey, you want non-sequitur?

Two soldiers are using a urinal in a bar. The first one, an Army infantryman zips up his pants and walks away. The second one, a Marine stops the first soldier and says, "You know, in the Marines we're taught to wash our hands after urinating."

To which the first soldier responds, "Really? In the Army we're taught not to piss on our hands."

You didn't hit a nerve, it's just that I wouldn't cover for ANYONE (even a fellow soldier) who had raped a 14 year old girl, burned her body and killed her family. Would you?

 

[Azure]

You didn't hit a nerve, it's just that I wouldn't cover for ANYONE (even a fellow soldier) who had raped a 14 year old girl, burned her body and killed her family. Would you?

I would cover that soldier as 'innocent until proven guilty', wouldn't you?

Seems to me you 'want' to accuse the troops in Iraq before they have been found guilty.

 

[csense]

Your view on this should be taken about as seriously as Saddam Hussien's view of his regime.

I hope you realize that by makng this analogy, you defeat your own argument. Oops, what am I saying, you're a moron, of course you don't realize it.

 

[Mephisto]

I would cover that soldier as 'innocent until proven guilty', wouldn't you?

Seems to me you 'want' to accuse the troops in Iraq before they have been found guilty.

Oh, I would certainly "cover" that soldier from hostile fire, and I would certainly shield him from hostile actions on the part of the enemy, but I wouldn't "cover" for him by insisting on his innocence based on the fact that he was a Marine. I've know some pretty bad Marines. I would also never "cover" for him by hiding evidence. I haven't accused anyone but those currently being held by military authorities of doing anything wrong, and apparently there is plenty of evidence that supports the allegations that SOME of our Marines are doing things they're not supposed to be doing, that is unless you believe that military authorities go about making baseless accusations against our soldiers.

 

[Azure]

Oh, I would certainly "cover" that soldier from hostile fire, and I would certainly shield him from hostile actions on the part of the enemy, but I wouldn't "cover" for him by insisting on his innocence based on the fact that he was a Marine. I've know some pretty bad Marines. I would also never "cover" for him by hiding evidence. I haven't accused anyone but those currently being held by military authorities of doing anything wrong, and apparently there is plenty of evidence that supports the allegations that SOME of our Marines are doing things they're not supposed to be doing.

So you don't defend his right to remain 'innocent until proven guilty?'

Strange.

 

[Mephisto]

So you don't defend his right to remain 'innocent until proven guilty?'

Strange.

Hey, where did I say that I would put them on trial and punish them myself? Everyone has an opinion on whether allegations are true or not - the OJ Simpson case was a perfect example. Do you believe that OJ Simpson killed his wife and another man?

I'm not out starting a lynch mob, I'm waiting for the courts to find the truth, and that's what you and csense don't seem to comprehend.

 

[csense]

You didn't hit a nerve, it's just that I wouldn't cover for ANYONE (even a fellow soldier) who had raped a 14 year old girl, burned her body and killed her family. Would you?

...Talk about non sequitur

What do you think the answer to that is....

 

[Azure]

Hey, where did I say that I would put them on trial and punish them myself? Everyone has an opinion on whether allegations are true or not - the OJ Simpson case was a perfect example. Do you believe that OJ Simpson killed his wife and another man?

Of course I have my opinions on whether or not OJ was guilty. Regardless, the final verdict said he was innocent, and I have to stand by that.

I'm not out starting a lynch mob, I'm waiting for the courts to find the truth, and that's what you and csense don't seem to comprehend.

Really?

You seem SO quick to accuse them of raping that girl.

You didn't hit a nerve, it's just that I wouldn't cover for ANYONE (even a fellow soldier) who had raped a 14 year old girl, burned her body and killed her family. Would you?

You make it seem like the soldier has been found guilty.

so why should I accept excuses from someone who is apparently willing to help cover up a crime to aid his brothers in arms?

Here you make it seem like the crime 'had' been committed. Again, we would only know that if the soldier/s have/has been found guilty.

Strange indeed.

 

[Tony]

I hope you realize that by makng this analogy, you defeat your own argument. Oops, what am I saying, you're a moron, of course you don't realize it.

And of course you realize you're an indoctrinated robot. Just chant "ooh ra" and everything will be ok. But watch your back, the eeevil New York times is coming to get you and convert your kids to abortion having, coke snorting, islam loving, jesus hating, homosexual libruls.

 

[csense]

...but I wouldn't "cover" for him by insisting on his innocence based on the fact that he was a Marine.

...And nobody on this thread has done that.

 

[csense]

I haven't accused anyone but those currently being held by military authorities of doing anything wrong, and apparently there is plenty of evidence that supports the allegations that SOME of our Marines are doing things they're not supposed to be doin...

You're being intentionally ambiguous here, but If you're talking about Haditha, and they have this evidence, plenty of it, then why hasn't anyone been charged.

Anyone can make allegations, and anyone can take a piece of ambiguous data, call it evidence, and then claim it supports those allegations. It's all speculation. What isn't speculation is that these Marines are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, be it military or otherwise....not by the New York Times, not by the U.N., not by the Islamofascists, and not by you and me.

...unless you believe that military authorities go about making baseless accusations against our soldiers.

Specific to Haditha, I'd like a cite for this....and I don't mean unknown high level military authorities, per NYT.

I want names, and specific, verifiable statements.


[size=-2][edited for spelling][/size]

 

[csense]

Post#50 by Tony
And of course you realize you're an indoctrinated robot. Just chant "ooh ra" and everything will be ok. But watch your back, the eeevil New York times is coming to get you and convert your kids to abortion having, coke snorting, islam loving, jesus hating, homosexual libruls.

Post#29 by Tony
The marine corps, into which you've been clearly indoctrinated.

Post#10 by Tony
I blame the big, bad, librul and eevil New York Times. It's not that the president is a moron or the troops commit atrocities, it's that the librul media conspires to report these facts so that no one will love America.



...Ya, I'm the robot

You know, it's getting to the point where I don't even have to say anything to make the case that you're a moron. Why not do yourself a favor and slither off this thread while you still have a shred of dignity left...

 

[Mephisto]

You're being intentionally ambiguous here, but If you're talking about Haditha, and they have this evidence, plenty of it, then why hasn't anyone been charged.

I'm not being intentionally ambiguous and I am talking about Haditha. Just because no one has been charged doesn't mean they won't be. My knowledge of attorneys working with the UCMJ is that they usually proceed cautiously. I don't know what the statute of limitations would be in a case like Haditha, but I'm sure both sides are going through the evidence with a fine-toothed comb. We'll all just have to await the outcome, right?

Anyone can make allegations, and anyone can take a piece of ambiguous data, call it evidence, and then claim it supports those allegations. It's all speculation. What isn't speculation is that these Marines are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, be it military or otherwise....not by the New York Times, not by the U.N., not by the Islamofascists, and not by you and me.

You're absolutely right, but not everyone can bring American soldiers under legal suspicion of war crimes, only the military can do that, and apparently the military is VERY interested in what happened on that day in Haditha.

Specific to Haditha, I'd like a cite for this....and I don't mean unknown high level military authorities, per NYT.

I want names, and specific, verifiable statements.


[size=-2][edited for spelling][/size]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here - I meant that there must be SOMETHING behind the allegations otherwise the military itself wouldn't be looking into it, right?

Look csense, I'm sorry for calling you "junior" earlier and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was a little overzealous in stating that the Marines are likely guilty, but after hearing reports of "misbehavior" on the part of our troops (and not just in Iraq), and hearing reports of "nazis" (White supremicists) inflitrating the ranks along with other gang members, I'm very wary of immediately believing our troops can do nothing wrong.

I sincerely apologize and I honestly hope that the Marines are cleared of any wrongdoing, BUT only if they are actually innocent. Allegations like these can only hurt our soldiers as they no doubt enrage the citizenry and hurt morale. You guys have a dangerous job and it's unfortunately sometimes a thankless job, but I know there are honest men and women there who do their best to hang onto the ideals that made America great. Having compassion in a war zone is often a commodity, yet I know how many soldiers struggle to hold onto that which makes them human.

I'm sorry if I sounded brash, angry and bitter all at once, but I can't abide by any criminal actions that might potentially endanger ALL soldiers. You are 100% correct in saying that we should wait until a court of law determines whether or not these men are guilty. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Tony]

...Ya, I'm the robot

Yes you are, but it doesn't have to be like that, what are you going to do about it?

You know, it's getting to the point where I don't even have to say anything to make the case that you're a moron. Why not do yourself a favor and slither off this thread while you still have a shred of dignity left...

I'm not the one blaming news I don't like on a New York Times conspiracy theory.

 

[Tailgater]

The marine corps, into which you've been clearly indoctrinated. Your view on this should be taken about as seriously as Saddam Hussien's view of his regime.

Hey meph, I was understanding alot of your points till I read this. After finding out that you were a vet (hats off to you for serving), I'm afraid that since you have been indoctrinated, we can no longer take you seriously. Your views are apparently equal to those of Saddam Hussien due to your military service. We must look to the New York Times now as the definitive answer to any debatable subject.

 

[Tailgater]

America, freedom, human rights. Yes, we have our loyalties.

Hmm, you mean like innocent until proven guilty? Wasn't that covered in there somewhere?

 

[Tailgater]

And of course you realize you're an indoctrinated robot. Just chant "ooh ra" and everything will be ok. But watch your back, the eeevil New York times is coming to get you and convert your kids to abortion having, coke snorting, islam loving, jesus hating, homosexual libruls.

So you are saying that the New York Times has always been right and never had to print a retraction? How interesting and naive. I don't recall him saying any of that. One comment on not believing a story and you are foaming at the mouth.

Maybe you should ask him since he questions something and you disagree "why do you hate the New York Times?". (usually America, but edited just for you to use for this thread)

 

[Mephisto]

Hey meph, I was understanding alot of your points till I read this. After finding out that you were a vet (hats off to you for serving), I'm afraid that since you have been indoctrinated, we can no longer take you seriously. Your views are apparently equal to those of Saddam Hussien due to your military service. We must look to the New York Times now as the definitive answer to any debatable subject.

Hey that's Tony's opinion and he's entitled to it. Although Tony and I see eye to eye on many subjects, we can't agree on everything. Military "indoctrination" was almost a rite of manhood in my family. I've got uncles who were ace tail gunners in WWII B-17s, cousins who served in the Inchon Basin in Korea, cousins my age who also served in Vietnam, younger cousins who served in Desert Storm, and now nephews and 2nd cousins serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the first time ever in my family, we'll now also have female relative with combat experience.

My first reaction to Tony's statement was, "Hey, you say indoctrination like it's a bad thing," but I realized that he was just baiting csense and I think csense knew it too. Either way, you shouldn't trust me as a definitive opinion on anything.

 

[Tailgater]

Hey that's Tony's opinion and he's entitled to it. Although Tony and I see eye to eye on many subjects, we can't agree on everything. Military "indoctrination" was almost a rite of manhood in my family. I've got uncles who were ace tail gunners in WWII B-17s, cousins who served in the Inchon Basin in Korea, cousins my age who also served in Vietnam, younger cousins who served in Desert Storm, and now nephews and 2nd cousins serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the first time ever in my family, we'll now also have female relative with combat experience.

My first reaction to Tony's statement was, "Hey, you say indoctrination like it's a bad thing," but I realized that he was just baiting csense and I think csense knew it too. Either way, you shouldn't trust me as a definitive opinion on anything.

Aye, I'm sure you know I was using you as a sarcastic example to Tony. I felt he was being unfair to csense. Most people in these forums have opinions on the media and how off the mark or quick to judge they can be. Running with a story and being wrong is a fact sometimes. Just because someone questions a story or asks that an American right such as "innocent until proven guilty" be upheld, he does not deserve to be insulted in such a way. I hit and miss with some of your points also, but I never feel the need to say that you have been brainwashed by the media to feel that way or unload insults. Two people can have opposing opinions and both be right to some extent. The one that uses the "your view doesn't count because of who you are" card is just a jerk.

Latest story that comes to mind is the lacrosse team rape scandal. Talk about the media chasing its own tail for a month. Everyone wanted to hang those kids at first. If they all end up innocent, will anyone apologize or fix their lives that have been scarred? Probably not. Were the other students and friends backing them robots for not believing them to be guilty when major news agencies where parading experts on, showing the kids pictures, and digging up junk from the kids pasts? The media all wanted to have the "breaking news".