LMAO @ Howard Dean

[Renfield]

Um, can we agree that Dean was dishonestly quoted above? Note where the quote starts and ends and then take a look at his actual words and get back to me. There is a big difference in the portion you paraphrased and what he actually said.

A shame Republicans (and you) misquote to make it more attackable.

Lurker

Oh, don't leave out the "liberal" media. What a freaking joke. The right slammmed Clinton and the democrats with language far more harsh then that just about daily.

 

[Renfield]

So, then if you said (for example): "I do not molest rocks" and you were quoted as saying "I do ... molest rocks" you'd say that wasn't a paraphrase?

What would you call it?

Whatever you call it is the same thing somebody did to Dean in this thread.

Do you think it's honest? Straightforward? Ethical? Moral?

Somebody? I think the so media started it from what I can tell. Or at least they sure ran with it once the Republicans put it out there. Incredible. Usually a conservative has to say something like the country would have been better off if the segregationalists had won back in the forties to start this kind of controversy.

If this is a liberal media, I'd sure as hell hate to see what would happen if the right took control of it. Oh wait, that would be fox news. Guess it could be worse.

And the right must be laughing there asses off at how quickly the dems turn against themselves. Dear God, Dean's comments have drawn some criticism! He's controversial now! We better distance ourselves. Run away! Run away! for gods sake, don't try to defend him you fools.

 

[RandFan]

Oh, don't leave out the "liberal" media. What a freaking joke. The right slammmed Clinton and the democrats with language far more harsh then that just about daily.

When are you guys going to stop bringing up Clinton?

 

[Renfield]

When are you guys going to stop bringing up Clinton?

Ha. got me there.

 

[RandFan]

Ha. got me there.

Being one of the worst offender of interjecting Clinton into any possible discussion I couldn't pass it up.

BTW, remember even Clinton complained to Rolling Stone that he did not get "one damn bit of credit from the knee-jerk liberal press."

See how I did that? Smooth baby.

ETA, I'm beginning to become disillusioned with the whole notion of a liberal press. They do need to grow a back bone and just report the truth and not worry about Republican attacks. Kow-towing to Republicans won't make them look objective just wimpy.

 

[peptoabysmal]

Aside from the fact that Dean was stupid enough to do his own dirty work, how is what he said any different the right-wing claims about the left? O'Reilly claims that the ACLU is a fascist organization. Hannity compares liberalism to evil. And my personal favorite, Savage calls liberalism a mental disorder.

(To be honest, I don't know if the last one is fair. Michael Savage is, himself, a crazy nut-job. Every "family" has the crazy uncle that no one takes seriously)

Apples and oranges. You are comparing talk show hosts with the Democratic Party Chairman.

 

[Upchurch]

Apples and oranges. You are comparing talk show hosts with the Democratic Party Chairman.

You're missing my point. The tactic is the same from both sides, only the delivery method is different: smear the other side with gross over-generalizations to discredit them in the eyes of the voters.

The Repulican party is smart enough to deliver it through talk show hosts and print commentators, who simultaneously sell themselves as both partisan and objective, whereas Dean is an idiot to do it himself. Also, Dean's execution was too clumsy, but that's my personal opinion. The conservative talk shows take their cues from White House and GOP talking points. Hannity is excellent example of this. He's the poster boy for party shill, especially during '04 when it was the most transparent.

Unfortunately, Dean will probably figure this out and realize that this is the path to winning elections. The line between information and propoganda will get even thinner than it already is.

 

[bigred]

Hmm, my guess is many of the Talk Show Dorks have more listeners than Dean does. So which carries more responsibility?

ACLU=Fascist? That's kind of funny. Are you a fan of Coulter, by chance?

Lurker

It's funny that you think that's funny. Actually it's a little sad in a way too.

Not a fan of Coulter.....as I'm no fan of anyone who plays this mindless "my side is always right, yours is always wrong" gibberish that's all the rage in this country. And there seems to be about as much of it in JREF as most anywhere else. Sad.

I also have this crazy idea that the "leader" of one of the two dominant political parties in the most powerful country in the world has a tad more responsibility than a talk show host.

whatevah

 

[Ed]

Originally posted by Upchurch
You're missing my point. The tactic is the same from both sides, only the delivery method is different: smear the other side with gross over-generalizations to discredit them in the eyes of the voters.

Yup. I recall some really wild accusations (both sides, natch) that were "floated" to gauge response. If you keep your eye open they still happen.

The Repulican party is smart enough to deliver it through talk show hosts and print commentators, who simultaneously sell themselves as both partisan and objective, whereas Dean is an idiot to do it himself. Also, Dean's execution was too clumsy, but that's my personal opinion. The conservative talk shows take their cues from White House and GOP talking points. Hannity is excellent example of this. He's the poster boy for party shill, especially during '04 when it was the most transparent.

Well, I would humbly suggest that there are plenty in Hollywood that gleefully carry a progressive, liberal banner. Unfortunately, since they tend to believe their own BS they come across as pretty stridant too (n.b...see below). I say that prick Hannietty with Rosie O'Donnal yesterday. Honest to god, with all the mugging and hyperbole, you could be forgiven if you could not tell them apart. The entire complex of world shaking issues reduced to black and white. Shameful.

Unfortunately, Dean will probably figure this out and realize that this is the path to winning elections. The line between information and propoganda will get even thinner than it already is.

Yes but it appears that a few Democrats are distanceing themselves. He may simply be marginalized.




n.b. re. them believing their own BS. I heard yesterday that MJ is so convienced that he is getting off that he has not discussed what will happen to his kids if he goes up the river. His aides evidentially support him in this. Talk about odd.[/QUOTE]

 

[Lurker]

It's funny that you think that's funny. Actually it's a little sad in a way too.

I also have this crazy idea that the "leader" of one of the two dominant political parties in the most powerful country in the world has a tad more responsibility than a talk show host.

whatevah

Well, I hear from the media how the ACLU is a bigger threat to the US than Al Qaeda. Frankly, I find that humorous in a mordant sort of way. So when you equate the ACLU with fascism, I find that funny as well. I take it you absolutely despise the ACLU. Care to share why?

As to your second paragraph I am not saying dean was corrrect but just musing about the actual impact of a talk radio hist versus a political leader

 

[Upchurch]

Well, I would humbly suggest that there are plenty in Hollywood that gleefully carry a progressive, liberal banner. Unfortunately, since they tend to believe their own BS they come across as pretty stridant too (n.b...see below).

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of them and I'm sure they are effective, to a degree. However, I still think the constant and daily stream from the talk shows are a much more effective tool than the occasional movie and/or celebrity press conference.

 

[Ed]

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of them and I'm sure they are effective, to a degree. However, I still think the constant and daily stream from the talk shows are a much more effective tool than the occasional movie and/or celebrity press conference.

Maybe. The liberal stuff is "event" driven. Like Sean Penn's visit to Iraq or the release of one of the neverending books that have the same tired liteny as their subject matter or (how can we forget) Michael Moore who is/was given his hour in the sun for his movie at the DNC.

The curious thing is that the righties gave MM more press than he ever could have gotten himself. Sputtering outrage wears thin no matter who is doing the sputtering.


The sign that this sad episode in American History is ending will be the fall off of ratings for the commentators for the right.

 

[varwoche]

I also have this crazy idea that the "leader" of one of the two dominant political parties in the most powerful country in the world has a tad more responsibility than a talk show host.

There is no position that is more hackish than the party chairman -- the worst of the worst. Dean fits right in, which is no defense.

As a former Dean supporter, I overestimated him by no small measure. I predict that he won't last long.

 

[Random]

As much as I personally think Dean is over the top, speaking as a liberal I can't tell you how refreshing it is to have a high ranking Democratic official come out swinging. I don't care how nuts he is, the rest of the Democratic party leadership strikes me as a bunch of meally-mouthed middle of the roaders who are so affraid of saying anything that someone might say is offensive that they end up saying nothing at all. Then they appologize for saying it.

I am reminded of what Abraham Lincoln said after he was asked to fire General Grant. "I cannot spare this man. He fights."

 

[Jocko]

As a former Dean supporter, I overestimated him by no small measure. I predict that he won't last long.

Ordinarilly I'd agree, but if Dean has proven one thing, it's that he doesn't have to draw his energy from the support of others, be it philosophical or financial. Kind of like Ross Perot in '96. He's a political perpetual motion machine, requiring no external impetus to keep rolling.

Also like a perpetual motion machine, he is a logical impossibility.

 

[Jocko]

As much as I personally think Dean is over the top, speaking as a liberal I can't tell you how refreshing it is to have a high ranking Democratic official come out swinging. I don't care how nuts he is, the rest of the Democratic party leadership strikes me as a bunch of meally-mouthed middle of the roaders who are so affraid of saying anything that someone might say is offensive that they end up saying nothing at all. Then they appologize for saying it.

I am reminded of what Abraham Lincoln said after he was asked to fire General Grant. "I cannot spare this man. He fights."

Which is why I must admire the man, if not the platform. Say what you want about him, he seems to have the integrity to win or lose based on his heart, rather than tactical superiority. That may doom him in the end, but history is replete with such heroes.

 

[Red Siegfried]

Oh, don't leave out the "liberal" media. What a freaking joke. The right slammmed Clinton and the democrats with language far more harsh then that just about daily.

To be fair, I thought Clinton was not a bad president. Not terrific, but not bad either, pretty okay in my opinion. Kind of like Bush.

I even voted for Clinton first term.

That being said, he's still a scumbag for cheating on his wife.