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Live TV Exorcism

HEY!! That's ENOUGH! Here's what *I* see here, and you'd all do well to step back, take a deep breath and realize that I'm on the outside of this argument so I *MIGHT* have a slightly uncluttered view than the rest of you.

1. Azrael posts a worthwhile heads up about some serious Woo about to materialize on C4.

2. Janice post a RELEVANT, ON-TOPIC, and USEFUL, piece of information, namely the scheduling data for the show in question.

3. World+dog piles on to Janice for something she may have said in a past thread, this is of course unprovoked (all she did HERE was post scheduling info!) and competely OFF-TOPIC in this particular thread.

4. inevitably this causes the entire thread to degenerate into a fight, and all opportunity for those of us who want to have an ON-TOPOC discussion has effectively been destroyed. Well done folks, well done indeed. In the pursuit of a personal vendetta you've trashed a good line of discussion and REDUCED the amount of viable EDUCATION gainable from this thread.


People, GET OVER YOURSELVES, this isn't even about whether or not you've been wrongs at some point anymore, are you completely incapable of seeing that these sorts of attacks are harming the entire purpose of this forums existence?? Are you so intent on pursuing vendettas that you simply CANNOT refrain from posting off-topic and ruining threads???

Oh and one more thing, I have NOT read back into whatever may or may nto have happened with Janice in the past, this is simply because I believe in judging a person fresh on the actions I witness myself, and the first thing I witnessed her doing is providing me with a piece of useful information that allowed me to shedule a recording of this show (and don't tell me it's not worth watching, ALWAYS watch what the woo mongers are feeding to their viewers, it's vital information!) Which is more than most everyone else whose joined this slugfest.

Furthermore I note a particular comment that implies that simply showing INTEREST in the POSSIBILITY of an afterlife is a form of 'woo'. That sort of argument is extremely falacious, it is directly contradictory to good science to state negative proof, you CANNOT say there is no afterlife, you can only say there is no viable PROOF of an afterlife, the possibility of an afterlife very much still exists and is simply impossible to disprove, merely investigating that possibility is not a woo infection, wanting to know more is not a woo infection, blindly BELIEVING that the dead talk to Sylvia Browne or whomever else is woo infection. Get the difference? Because if you don't you're a very poor skeptic indeed, your bias is preventing you from maintaining an open mind moderated by good science and instead forcing you into incorrect unscientific conclusions, and are therefore as much in the wrong forum as a woo monger would be!
 
I suspect that given the nature of this forum, a lot of the long-term posters have become very tired of seeing the same old claims, bringing up the same old refutations, and repeating everything over and over again. Being a veteran poster in a couple of places myself I have felt this frustration. It is hard on a newbie, because it is even harder for the 'vets' to politely notify said newbie that their claim has been considered and dismissed in the past.
 
I dont think after 11 posts Hantai you can tell others what to do.Janice brought everything on herself!;)
 
There is no excuse for trashing a thread's initial purpose and harming the forum as a whole in pursuit of vendetta, and if you believe my post count on this particular forum to be a measure of my forum administration experience you are erring significantly.
 
Hantai said:
There is no excuse for trashing a thread's initial purpose and harming the forum as a whole in pursuit of vendetta, and if you believe my post count on this particular forum to be a measure of my forum administration experience you are erring significantly.

Well, yes, I think that several sides of this debate are in fact making that point, not just you.

I do appreciate the information on when the program will show, of course since it's in the UK I don't get to see it (I'm not sure I'd watch it anyhow, it reeks of ethical issues to me). On the other hand, several people, including me, have tried to engage Janice, and been unsuccessful.

While she may or may not have something to object to about the way that some of the people who have called "troll" have reacted, she, herself, has acted objectionably in not engaging the people who have politely asked her for some evidence and clarification of her own challenge, in particular her authority to assume a particular kind of paranormal event in the question itself, when in fact the existance of such events are as of yet undemonstrated in neutral settings.
 
Even assuming you are entirely correct about Janice (respectfully however, my own experience strongly suggests otherwise) my point is that THIS thread had nothing to do with any issues that may or may not exist with Janice and that there is no excuse for introducing them HERE in the first place simply because she chose to post, her post was on topic, the subsequent attack was NOT, she may or may not have "brought this on herself" somewhere else, but in this thread she was RELEVANT and NON-PROVOCATIVE, there was no reason to veer off topic with an assault and the result of this veering off topic has been the destruction of the thread's original purpose. THAT is not excusable, if there's to be a 'Janice' debate it should sit in a thread centric on her so as not to polute the entirety of the remainder of this forum with arguments, this further allows Janice to choose whether she wants any part of that particular argument without impacting her ability to otherwise enjoy the forums. I say again, I am not criticizing your right to slag people off, I think it's an awful and childish thing to do, but if you feel you must then by all means, feel free, but keep it the hell out of unrelated threads and let them continue their own existence on topic, to do otherwise is to ultimately destroy this forum.
 
Hantai said:
my point is that THIS thread had nothing to do with any issues that may or may not exist with Janice

If I understand correctly, I am not to learn from experience?

Now, note I was not the person who chose to attack Janice, nor was I the one who raised other issues until they were already under discussion, and what I did was to explain what I saw the problem as being.

That would seem, then, that my attempt to communicate is what you regard as a way to "destroy the forum". I frankly think it's unreasonable of you to imply that attempting to open a line of communication is somehow destructive.
 
Hantai said:
Even assuming you are entirely correct about Janice (respectfully however, my own experience strongly suggests otherwise)

One thing that may have misled you is people reacting as if they were personally insulted when Janice appeared to make the generic statement "there are about 7 - 8 users on this forum, who use the same principles". She isn't. She, in fact, keeps a list, randomly swears at this named list, and then claims to be leaving the forum to prevent people from responding. (I used to be on the list, then for unknown reasons fell off it. This post will put me back, I'm sure).

but in this thread she was RELEVANT and NON-PROVOCATIVE,

Her first post may have been, and if you reread the initial replies, they weren't particularly harsh either. Her second post in context was delibaretely provocative.

there was no reason to veer off topic with an assault and the result of this veering off topic has been the destruction of the thread's original purpose.

You are aware you are chastising the thread starter for derailing this topic? Don't you think Azrael is the person who gets to decide if it matters?

but keep it the hell out of unrelated threads and let them continue their own existence on topic, to do otherwise is to ultimately destroy this forum. [/B]

If you have experience with multiple forums, then you are aware that each forum has its own ethos as to acceptable and appropriate behaviour. Typically in stable boards, this behaviour is influenced by the long standing members. You, at a dozen odd posts and two months, are not long standing. I, at 300 odd posts and almost a year, am not long standing. On a board where you are still considered somewhat of a newbie if you weren't here when it started, don't you think they have a pretty good idea of what is and isn't destructive to the forum?

Perhaps this forum is simply more community oriented than the one's you are used too - posters are assumed to be familiar with the majority of threads by default. For instance, people would mention 1inChrist expecting you to know who he is, despite the fact that he did the majority of his posting on a different board (R&P) months ago. Janice's behaviour affects everyone, and forgiving her past behaviour because she happens to be on a new thread is a little counterproductive.
 
Azrael 5 said:
I dont think after 11 posts Hantai you can tell others what to do.)

As a new member myself Azrael, I would appreciate knowing how many posts I would need to make before I could tell you what to do. Is there some sort of a sliding scale perhaps? I mean, could I venture some mild criticism of you after x posts, some more trenchant comments after 3x and finally tell you what to do after - well, you tell me.
 
RamblingOnwards said:

You are aware you are chastising the thread starter for derailing this topic? Don't you think Azrael is the person who gets to decide if it matters?

Absolutely not no, Azrael is as bound as anyone else in this forum by duty towards the community, this means doing what's best to promote the community's good image and it's goal of advancing knowledge. The fracas in this thread has created a situation where a new reader coming by the thread and wanting to find out about the subject line's suggested topic instead ends up being greeted for the most part by other people's irrelevant arguments. How many people get put off by this sort of thing and simply leave again with a bad impression of the entire place and of skeptics in general, more than you'd imagine I can promise you that, and they're usually good people who'd otherwise become major contributors if that's the reason they leave! Every single time a thread devolves into a fight like this rather than stick to its topic you

a. destroy a central point of information regarding the thread's desginated topic.
b. portray this community as being vindictive and vicious.
c. portray skeptics as more interested in starting a fight than pursuing viable knowledge over woo.
d. Add a black mark the REAL troublemakers can use to call James Randi vindictive/false/argumentative/whatever on the basis of his followers' action. (Not it is NOT relevant that he has near 0 presence in the forums, you think that dispenses you from being on your best behaviour when you're posting under the JREF banner? That he's somehow magically dissasociated from the organization's name in the eyes of the real enemy?)

I honestly don't know how many more ways I can convey the harm you're doing to the entire skeptic cause with this sort of behaviour. I mean for pete's sake all I'm saying is TRY to actually demonstrate that you're a clearer thinker than a woo monger by using relevant and appropriately targetted logic and rather than randomly located personal attacks, how exactly is that a bad thing?? There is in fact only one scenario where acting in a more adult and controlled manner IS actually a bad thing to you, and that's if your precious ego appears to be bruised by a show of restraint, well get over it! I'm seeing elitism and cliquery at work here and that too is unspeakably harmful coming from a community that's SUPPOSED to be smart enough to be beyond that.
 
Hantai,

Yes, posting in a controlled, mature and rational way is a good aim. Three things:

1. We are individuals. The majority of us consider ourselves to be skeptics, but a minority strongly and vocally disagree with most things that Randi says. We are conversing here with friends and enemies, not attempting to write propoganda. We are not Randi's fifth column. We do not venerate him as the leader of our cult. If someone judges him by our behaviour, then they are so out of touch with reality that nothing we did would change things.

2. There are factors in play here which you admitted you didn't take the time to investigate. Your argument seems to be that a lurker could have done a similar thing. Yes, they could have. They could also have done a search on 'janice' to see what all the fuss was about before jumping to conclusions.

3. Please reread your 'HEY!! That's ENOUGH!' post. Would you reagrd that as a model of non-confrontational, polite and rational discourse?
 
RamblingOnwards said:
Hantai,

Yes, posting in a controlled, mature and rational way is a good aim. Three things:

1. We are individuals. The majority of us consider ourselves to be skeptics, but a minority strongly and vocally disagree with most things that Randi says. We are conversing here with friends and enemies, not attempting to write propoganda. We are not Randi's fifth column. We do not venerate him as the leader of our cult. If someone judges him by our behaviour, then they are so out of touch with reality that nothing we did would change things.

And you're saying that (bold) somehow DOESN'T describe the worst of the woo mongers and true believers? :P That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about, you act like kids you fuel the real nutballs' fires.

2. There are factors in play here which you admitted you didn't take the time to investigate. Your argument seems to be that a lurker could have done a similar thing. Yes, they could have. They could also have done a search on 'janice' to see what all the fuss was about before jumping to conclusions.

You fail to track my point, I didn't refuse to look into the history and jump to conclusions, I've refused to do so at this time because the conclusions in question have no relevance to the problem. My primary point is that a thread with no relevance to the problem has been trashed by dragging the problem into it, this is inexcusable now and would still be if Hitler himself were alive and posting here. Keep... It... Out... Of.... Unrelated... THREADS. History does NOT matter on that one single point!

3. Please reread your 'HEY!! That's ENOUGH!' post. Would you reagrd that as a model of non-confrontational, polite and rational discourse?

I regard it as what's said to a group of people who are currently acting like children but of whom I expected so much more as fellow intelligent, educated, sensible adults. Or were my hopes in that regard deluded? You tell me.
 
Hantai said:
And you're saying that (bold) somehow DOESN'T describe the worst of the woo mongers and true believers? :P That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about, you act like kids you fuel the real nutballs' fires.

Absolutely anything we did would fuel the real nutball's fires. Why should we care what they think of us?

You fail to track my point, I didn't refuse to look into the history and jump to conclusions, I've refused to do so at this time because the conclusions in question have no relevance to the problem. My primary point is that a thread with no relevance to the problem has been trashed by dragging the problem into it, this is inexcusable now and would still be if Hitler himself were alive and posting here. Keep... It... Out... Of.... Unrelated... THREADS. History does NOT matter on that one single point!

You failed to track mine. It wasn't an unrelated point. It was a post immediately after saying she would no longer post. When else should it have been commented on? Or do you believe that taking note of when people lie is in itself rude or useless? I'd think many people would disagree. Are you saying we should condone poor behaviour because it isn't as bad on this thread as it has been on previous? Whyever not?

I repeat a previous point - your view of a forum seems to regard individual threads as being almost sperate entities. This is a common and sensible approach on the really large forums such as slashdot. This forum, however, acts more as a community. Each new thread is simply a continuation of the conversation we are already engaged in. I have seen people jump from thread to thread, some of them concurrent, and some of them on different boards, while continuing the same line of conversation.

I regard it as what's said to a group of people who are currently acting like children but of whom I expected so much more as fellow intelligent, educated, sensible adults. Or were my hopes in that regard deluded? You tell me.

I hope that people will use standard punctutation - italics for occasional emphasis, single exclamation and question marks, colours only for humour, and so on. I hope that people will post objections in a reasoned, well-informed way. I hope that people will reserve confrontation, insults, and accusations until after they've tried alternate methods. I hope people will have the grace to acknowledge when they are wrong. I hope that people will send me large quantities of money. Are my hopes deluded?
 
Azrael 5 said:
Just a heads up! 11.05pm tonight Channel 4.;)

I found a good link here

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/science/body/exorcism.html

At the bottom is a link to the work of Dr Andrew Newberg. I have just ordered his book:
"Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief"
Andrew Newberg; Paperback; £6.73

which looks very interesting.

But if science can prove that the "spiritual" is created by electro-chemical processes in our brains, what will this information mean to the true believer?

There is more on the theory of god as a biological artifact of the brain here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5133279-111414,00.html
 
The Church of Scotland and exorcism:

It is hoped the work could lead to patients who are tormented but not diagnosed with psychiatric disorders being referred to the Church.

However, some psychiatrists and mental health campaigners feel the Church's move smacks of the medieval demonisation of health problems and could add to the stigma surrounding mental illness.

Called the Deliverance Group, the new committee has grown out of the Church of Scotland's board of social responsibility, which describes itself as the country's largest volunteer social work agency and employs 1600 people.

Over the next 12 months it will examine how other churches help people through exorcism, consider how to tackle scepticism and how to resource ministers to do more work in this area. A report outlining its conclusions will go to the general assembly.

Douglas Irving, convener of the group, which met for the first time last week, said guidelines on how to help the possessed were last drawn up in 1976 and needed to be reviewed.

He said: "There is a perceived need on the part of our study group to revisit this subject because we believe that the present understanding of the Church of Scotland in relation to this area of ministry is wanting. In view of the present climate, with so much abuse and cult activity, we need to revisit it."

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/2561
 
Is the priest who made the comment about "seeing the eyes of those with demons" possesed himself?
His eyes look wierd... :D
 
I liked the way they opened the window to let the devil out. Had the bedroom door been open, presumably they would have called downstairs and have someone open the front door for him instead?

PS They all seem slightly nuts to me.
 
Begone from my screen, thou accursed dramatic reconstructions. Thou art an abomination and doth try to tempt me from critical thought.

Edit: Also, thou art slightly hammy at times.
 

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