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Lithium Orotate

tesscaline

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tesscaline
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Aug 22, 2008
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This thread probably isn't necessary, however, being the skeptic that I am I want more information than I've found.

I recently had recommended to me Lithium Orotate as a supplement to help with mood stabilization. Now, I'm not in any particular need of mood stabilization at the moment (for once in my life), but the idea that lithium would be sold OTC caught me off guard.

The wiki article (linked above) seems to say that it doesn't actually work... And while my gut is to trust that (being all anti-altmed and whatnot), I wouldn't be a proper skeptic if I didn't try to find out if wiki is right (it's often not entirely correct, after all).

Unfortunately, I'm not able to access full text on pay-to-view medical journals so I thought that one of the many well informed medical practitioners on this forum might shed some light for me.

Thanks much, in advance :)
 
I don't see how one Lithium ion would be different from another.

If the free ion in the blood reaches therapeutic levels without being toxic, what does the body care where it came from.

I'm no chemist or physician, nor do I play either on TV, but unless the Orotate ion causes trouble, what difference could it make? Some compounds ionize better than others I think, but just increase the amount to compensate, right?

The way I was led to believe was that ionic compounds in solution were a bit like couples at a swingers party: the ions can change partners freely. :D

Cheers,

Dave
 
But some metal/amino combinations don't get broken down in the digestive track. They seem to be targeted molecules, treated a bit differently by the body. My anecdote is that magnesium orotate helps my tremor. The molecule stays together to bring the magnesium into the cell, it is not broken elsewhere. I learned about it from the UCSD doctor who diagnosed my mitochondrial disease.

Lithium for mental probs is tough to dose. Too much is not good either. I suspect the OTC lithium orotate might not bring the lith into the brain cells, therefor it is a safe otc pill. Or maybe it is just toooo small of a dose? Supplements don't have to work to be sold, they DO have to be safe.
 
CaveDave said:
I don't see how one Lithium ion would be different from another.
Click to expand...

But you aren't taking "lithium ion," you are taking a lithium salt that hopefully is a transporter of lithium.

Unfortunately, not all salts are the same. There is a big difference, for example, between sodium chloride and sodium benzoate.

I don't know what salt of lithium is generally used for medication, but I would be very worried about differences in solubility and extent of dissociation.

Is this actually OTC and regulated, or just a "supplement"?
 
The difference between therapeutic dose and toxic dose is pretty small with lithium, which is why you have to have blood tests when you are taking it. So either it doesn't reach therapeuic dose and therefore doesn't work, or it does reach that level and is therefore dangerous to sell OTC.

I suspect the former is true.
 
pgwenthold said:
I don't know what salt of lithium is generally used for medication, but I would be very worried about differences in solubility and extent of dissociation.
Click to expand...

Lithium carbonate is the most common, the citrate salt is also very common. Lithium orotate seems to be pretty much the same as the carbonate and citrate salts, although there is some research that suggests it may be more harmful.

That being said, lithium is serious medication, with very real side effects. I have a friend who is bipolar, and the largest side effect he experiences is tremors. He has to take bi-weekly blood tests to make sure that the level doesn't become toxic. The range between therapeutic and toxic is very narrow.

I think it would be extremely unwise to play around with lithium without a doctor's supervision. In the past, 7-Up had lithium in it, but that was long ago removed.

EDIT: With regards breaking down in the digestive tract, the lithium salt doesn't need to be broken down - it just needs to be soluble. If it is, it will dissociate of it's own accord.
 
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wackyvorlon said:
Lithium carbonate is the most common, the citrate salt is also very common. Lithium orotate seems to be pretty much the same as the carbonate and citrate salts, although there is some research that suggests it may be more harmful.
Click to expand...

In what way is lithium orotate "pretty much the same" as the carbonate and citrate salts? In terms of it's therapeutic effects? What are the relative dosages?
 
casebro said:
Supplements don't have to work to be sold, they DO have to be safe.
Click to expand...

Just to expand on this point: they don't have to be proven safe or effective before they're brought to market. However, if they're found to be (or known to be) dangerous, the FDA can pull them.
 
casebro said:
Supplements don't have to work to be sold, they DO have to be safe.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that this is not true in the US and Canada. In these regions, supplements are assumed safe when sold, but can be removed if proven unsafe. (Or if it contains an ingredient that has already been proven unsafe, but somebody has to report this.)

Look at ephedrine. It took *years* to get this stuff off the market, and the suppliers just switched to synephrine. There's every reason to believe that synephrine is as harmful as ephedrine, but the burden of proof is on the quackbusters to prove it's harmful.
 
I Ratant said:
A friend with bi-polar disorder and on Lithium got pregnant, with the doctor predicting serious problems with the child and the post-partum effects on the mother.
He recommended (and she got) an abortion.
I didn't see any mention of this potential problem with the orotate.
Click to expand...

That's because no one's spent enough time studying the effects of lithium orotate to get to the question of "the effect on pregnant women and developing fetus." It has to actually show promise as a therapy in the first place before you worry about such tangents.
 
I Am NOT A Doctor.

But I am married to a psychiatric social worker and have talked with her about how medications are dealt with.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take Lithium without close medical supervision. And if you have that, get the Lithium they will prescribe for you because that will be a regulated, known dose. You can mess yourself up BIG TIME with the wrong Lithium dose.
 
casebro said:
{snip} Supplements don't have to work to be sold, they DO have to be safe.
Click to expand...
Actually, no. Dan Hurley's book ("Natural Causes" Broadway Books, 2006) explains that in considerable detail. For example, the supplement ephedra did work; but was known to be dangerous when it was marketed (the key ingredient, the drug ephedrine, causes strokes and heart attacks). So, it was offered as an herb and it took the FDA ten years to prove the danger and ban it. In the meantime, Big Suppla found it more profitable to settle cases of serious damage, including death, rather than stop selling the stuff.

This is not an isolated example- read the book. There are also serious problems with quality control, including lethal contamination of herbs that may, otherwise, have been innocuous.
 
pgwenthold said:
That's because no one's spent enough time studying the effects of lithium orotate to get to the question of "the effect on pregnant women and developing fetus." It has to actually show promise as a therapy in the first place before you worry about such tangents.
Click to expand...
.
It's being prescribed as we speak! OP.
 
wackyvorlon said:
Lithium carbonate is the most common, the citrate salt is also very common. Lithium orotate seems to be pretty much the same as the carbonate and citrate salts, although there is some research that suggests it may be more harmful.

That being said, lithium is serious medication, with very real side effects. I have a friend who is bipolar, and the largest side effect he experiences is tremors. He has to take bi-weekly blood tests to make sure that the level doesn't become toxic. The range between therapeutic and toxic is very narrow.

I think it would be extremely unwise to play around with lithium without a doctor's supervision. In the past, 7-Up had lithium in it, but that was long ago removed.

EDIT: With regards breaking down in the digestive tract, the lithium salt doesn't need to be broken down - it just needs to be soluble. If it is, it will dissociate of it's own accord.
Click to expand...

BenBurch said:
I Am NOT A Doctor.

But I am married to a psychiatric social worker and have talked with her about how medications are dealt with.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not take Lithium without close medical supervision. And if you have that, get the Lithium they will prescribe for you because that will be a regulated, known dose. You can mess yourself up BIG TIME with the wrong Lithium dose.
Click to expand...

To both Ben & Wacky -- I would never dream of taking any form of Lithium without a dr's supervision, simply because I've been on Lithium Carbonate in the past and know full well the dangers associated with Lithium and Lithium toxicity. It is that knowledge that spurred the start of this thread, actually, as the idea that something that could potentially be so very very dangerous would be sold over the counter.

I Ratant said:
.
It's being prescribed as we speak! OP.
Click to expand...
Not exactly prescribed, but at least suggested in passing by health care professionals -- as it was to me. My woo alarm went off immediately when it was mentioned about it being a "natural alternative" but I'm a mature enough person to actually do some research and get some information before rushing to conclusions.

Thats why I started this thread -- to try and get information about the mineral in this different form (yes, there can be drastic differences between different forms of minerals) to find out if:

A) It is actually effective (or not) beyond placebo
B) It is safer (or not) to take than Lithium Carbonate
C) If not safer, then what risks are there and are they as severe as with Lithium Carbonate.

Since I'm not actually having mood stabilization issues at the moment, I won't be taking it no matter what the answers are. I don't believe in unnecessary medication/supplements. But I am curious about it from a scholarly standpoint (love to learn -- NEED to learn), as well as a "info for the future, just in case" sort of standpoint.

Prof. Yaffle -- thanks for the studies. I wish there was something out there that definitively stated whether or not lithium orotate was effective or "safe" for humans... But since it's part of the supplement world and not the regulated pharma world, I'm guessing there isn't anything definitive huh? :(
 
Good.

It *is* true that a salt is more readily absorbed by the body than a carbonate, in general.

But they factor that INTO the dosage for the carbonate.

I have chronically low magnesium levels. I just seem to dump the stuff and this causes muscle cramps and migraine headaches. So at the advice of my doctor I take magnesium supplements, and the type I take is the generic for "Slo-Mag" enteric coated magnesium chloride. And the reason is that I can take 4 of those and have no problems, or to get the same effect about a dozen of the magnesium carbonate supposedly containing the same amount of magnesium per pill - but its not as bio-available.
 
Quick point: lithium carbonate is a salt. It's a salt of lithium hydroxide and carbonic acid. Though, it appears that lithium carbonate isn't very soluble in water(1g in 100mL).

EDIT: I don't know the solubility of the citrate salt, but if it's better than the carbonate it would certainly require a lower dose, methinks.
 
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wackyvorlon said:
Quick point: lithium carbonate is a salt. It's a salt of lithium hydroxide and carbonic acid. Though, it appears that lithium carbonate isn't very soluble in water(1g in 100mL).

EDIT: I don't know the solubility of the citrate salt, but if it's better than the carbonate it would certainly require a lower dose, methinks.
Click to expand...

AH!

I Am NOT A Chemist. :-D
 
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