Couldn't agree more Robert2, and welcome to the forum. Aussie?
Lindy Chamberlain exonerated - a dingo did it.
- Thread starter a_unique_person
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Couldn't agree more Robert2, and welcome to the forum. Aussie?
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
The first person I heard say that it wasn't a dingo, that the mother did it, (and this was right at the start, before the 'forensics' debacle), was a woman.
Same here. Lindy apparently didn't behave as a "real" bereaved mother should.
I don't understand, was it a female dingo?
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
Still true? I was living in Alice Springs when the event happened. I thought she did it at the time but no longer. Some things that made me believe that then were:
That the baby was carried out of a tent containing two other sleeping children.
That dingos were too wary of people (Fraser Island experiences tell us otherwise).
The forensic claims that Azaria's jumpsuit had been cut.
Suspicions raised about the finding of the jumpsuit.
The alleged blood splatter marks in the car that were explained at the time as the result of the Chamberlains picking up an accident Vitim. Later said to be sound deadening material spayed on the firewall.
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Glad they've had the outcome that the evidence always seemed to support.
What I don't understand is why they've substituted a middle age woman in all the recent news clips. As far as I recall she's only a young person, I know this has taken a few years to get cleared-up but.... what 30 years ago? ... astonishing. What incredible tenacity they've shown.
One quick question as I can't remember - why was only the mother charged?
What I don't understand is why they've substituted a middle age woman in all the recent news clips. As far as I recall she's only a young person, I know this has taken a few years to get cleared-up but.... what 30 years ago? ... astonishing. What incredible tenacity they've shown.
One quick question as I can't remember - why was only the mother charged?
Michael was charged with being an accessory. Apparently, the police believed Lindy killed the baby as she reported seeing the dingo, when she in fact killed the baby. Michael claimed to see nothing.
No motive, no body, no weapon.......
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
Michael was charged as an accessory. The prosecution shoehorned the murder into Lindy's 10-minute absence from the camp when she went to the car.
You have neatly described exactly what I thought when I thought about the matter at all. Perhaps Lindy Chamberlain's great crime was remaining stoical and psychologically strong in the face of almost universal misunderstanding and denigration.
I hope more of those who pursued and punished an innocent woman and her family will follow Wendy Harmer's example - those who are still alive 30 years on.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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There were a number of complicating factors, besides the lack of desire on the part of the authorities to accept their mistakes.
There were a number of issues with the third inquest (which brought in an open verdict due to lack of evidence back in 1995) and the second inquest (murder) which may not have been compliant with the Coroners Acts.
Describing the forensics as "flawed" is, in my opinion, overly charitable; they were rubbish. The police failed to take control samples (which would have shown that one of their tests was utterly flawed) and destroyed samples, thus ensuring that their tests could not be examined properly.
Then there's the behaviour of James Cameron............
In my opinion (again) the destruction of the samples and plates used in testing denied the defense the ability to properly cross-examine the scientific evidence and should have lead to it being deemed inadmissible.
Ooop, already covered.
Oh yes.
Well Cameron, who I consider should have faced at least disciplinary proceedings, is dead.
Michael Chamberlain guilty of being an accessory after the fact back in '82. The police couldn't fit him into their timeline for the supposed murder.
Just Ignore JJ.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
A number of off-topic posts about "woman-hating" have been split to AAH. If you want to start a topic about that, you may, but I don't think these posts would make an auspicious beginning, as they're already starting to get uncivil.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: Tricky
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
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no control
I was probably being overly charitable. At least one of the state's witnesses implied that the ortho-tolidine presumptive test for blood could not yield false positives. Some of the positive results were in parts of the car which were not accessible unless one removed panels. These areas should have been considered substrate controls, IMO. When a substrate control* is positive, it should signal people that something is not as it seems. Ms. Kuhl's hemoglobin F tests were (from what I can gather) just something that she devised on her own, as opposed to being something that was in the scientific literature. I agree that the destruction of the plates was bad practice. I would also add that the hemoglobin F tests were done 13 months after the Azaria's death. I have doubts that hemoglobin would not denature after that time and under extremes of temperature.
*Peter Gill wrote about substrate controls in a different context, "The original concept of the substrate control was to test for spurious reactions with environmental contaminants such as vegetable extracts..."
catsmate,
I was probably being overly charitable. At least one of the state's witnesses implied that the ortho-tolidine presumptive test for blood could not yield false positives. Some of the positive results were in parts of the car which were not accessible unless one removed panels. These areas should have been considered substrate controls, IMO. When a substrate control* is positive, it should signal people that something is not as it seems. Ms. Kuhl's hemoglobin F tests were (from what I can gather) just something that she devised on her own, as opposed to being something that was in the scientific literature. I agree that the destruction of the plates was bad practice. I would also add that the hemoglobin F tests were done 13 months after the Azaria's death. I have doubts that hemoglobin would not denature after that time and under extremes of temperature.
*Peter Gill wrote about substrate controls in a different context, "The original concept of the substrate control was to test for spurious reactions with environmental contaminants such as vegetable extracts..."
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Damien Evans
Up The Irons
No, they're a protected native species, but can be controlled in certain areas, such as around sheep farms and the like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo#Legal_status
Howie Felterbush
Bow Tie Daddy
Let's all meet back here in thirty years to rehash this case. There should be some new evidence by then.
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
I hope I'm still around to do so. Doubtful.
'From Fairy to Witch: Imagery and Myth in the Azaria case.' (1984)
***She was a beautiful little girl, so natural - a little fairy (Mrs E M Waterhouse of Whakatane, New Zealand, referring to Lindy Chamberlain, Daily Telegraph, November 1, 1983.)
"I feel that I am the victim of a medieval witch-hunt (Lindy Chamberlain, Woman's Day, October 1, 1980.)
...
Azaria and Lindy Chamberlain have slowly been absorbed into Australian folklore, their tragedy told and retold until it no longer stirs so strongly the surges of disquiet and morbid fascination. They have become a nation's obsession, producing prodigious newspaper copy and endless legal speculation as well as a particular genre of jokes and graffiti. According to Sanders, the case was surrounded by 'an incontinent excessive discourse that subverted the official attempts at closure' ... . The imagery which informed the public discourse was peppered with potent allusions to creatures and moods of other times and other places long past. The spectre of Lindy as witch was rarely articulated, yet the notion percolated just beneath the constantly informing the imagery which pervaded the discussion. The discussion surrounding the case clearly illustrates just how deeply the figure of the witch has permeated our cultural forms. The para*phernalia of witchcraft pervades our humour, our art, our literature, our mythologies and our history. The witch 'has come to be seen as both a scapegoat and saviour, a figure of fun and a figure of menace, a model for women and a cautionary antimodel' ... . As a symbol of female freedom, power and sexuality, the witch also represents and reminds women of the potential brutal retribution which the exercise of this freedom, power and sexuality can bring.
...
A patriarchal social order such as ours depends for its very existence on hordes of 'perfect little mothers' assigned responsibility for the biological and social reproduction of the species. Lindy, by even raising the possibility of having killed her child, like many women before her, struck at one of the pivots of patriarchy, as did the medieval witches who used their female magical power to defy the laws of nature in the service of Satan (Bovenschen, 1978:97). Every woman was a potential witch. Lindy, in so many ways, crystallised the particular fears and passions inherent in motherhood today: defending one's child from the enemy within the nuclear family as well as the enemy without.***
***She was a beautiful little girl, so natural - a little fairy (Mrs E M Waterhouse of Whakatane, New Zealand, referring to Lindy Chamberlain, Daily Telegraph, November 1, 1983.)
"I feel that I am the victim of a medieval witch-hunt (Lindy Chamberlain, Woman's Day, October 1, 1980.)
...
Azaria and Lindy Chamberlain have slowly been absorbed into Australian folklore, their tragedy told and retold until it no longer stirs so strongly the surges of disquiet and morbid fascination. They have become a nation's obsession, producing prodigious newspaper copy and endless legal speculation as well as a particular genre of jokes and graffiti. According to Sanders, the case was surrounded by 'an incontinent excessive discourse that subverted the official attempts at closure' ... . The imagery which informed the public discourse was peppered with potent allusions to creatures and moods of other times and other places long past. The spectre of Lindy as witch was rarely articulated, yet the notion percolated just beneath the constantly informing the imagery which pervaded the discussion. The discussion surrounding the case clearly illustrates just how deeply the figure of the witch has permeated our cultural forms. The para*phernalia of witchcraft pervades our humour, our art, our literature, our mythologies and our history. The witch 'has come to be seen as both a scapegoat and saviour, a figure of fun and a figure of menace, a model for women and a cautionary antimodel' ... . As a symbol of female freedom, power and sexuality, the witch also represents and reminds women of the potential brutal retribution which the exercise of this freedom, power and sexuality can bring.
...
A patriarchal social order such as ours depends for its very existence on hordes of 'perfect little mothers' assigned responsibility for the biological and social reproduction of the species. Lindy, by even raising the possibility of having killed her child, like many women before her, struck at one of the pivots of patriarchy, as did the medieval witches who used their female magical power to defy the laws of nature in the service of Satan (Bovenschen, 1978:97). Every woman was a potential witch. Lindy, in so many ways, crystallised the particular fears and passions inherent in motherhood today: defending one's child from the enemy within the nuclear family as well as the enemy without.***
Chris_Halkides
Penultimate Amazing
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reforms
One good reason to rehash an old, high-profile case is to use it as impetus for reforms. I see the same mistakes (forensic and otherwise) in more recent cases. Sadly, I don't perceive much zeal for desirable changes in our criminal justice systems.
catsmate
No longer the 1
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I'd have to check but I think this was Kuhl's supervisor and he didn't just imply this.
True. Plus there's the issue of false positives from copper dust, which wasn't tested for at all.
I *believe* that the manufacturer later stated definitively that the test wasn't suitable for determination of foetal blood.
I'd go further and say that it should have caused the forensic evidence to be excluded as it ruled out any chance of independent tests.
Agreed. And this is something Kuhl admitted she had no experience with.
Orthotolidine was also shown to react with copper, later testing around the Chamberlain's home (and in other cars from the area) showed extensive copper contamination and reacted positively with the test.
The alleged "spray of blood" from which the swabs were taken turned out to be a common sound-dampening treatment used on that model of car; examination of other cars found nearly identical spray patterns.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This. We see it in case after case after case. And yet still there are judges who will believe any rubbish the police present, and seem convinced that nobody would be charged unless they were guilty.
We see it in other threads in this forum, where rational explanations of why a police investigation became misdirected and went hell-for-leather after an innocent person and sought to minimise or excuse the culpability of others are howled down as "conspiracy theories".
There is a deep-seated cancer at the heart of criminal investigation in many countries, something the Americans call the "Chicago cop syndrome". I don't know what can be done about it. I do think it would be a significant advance if people stopped this "no smoke without fire" approach and held all police accusations to reasonable standards of critical thinking.
Rolfe.
Antony
Graduate Poster
Agree whole-heartedly. It's hard to see what can be done about it as long as decision-makers fail (or choose not) to recognise that it's happening; it's a bit easier to suggest what they would do if there was real commitment to cure the problem: it would be a start to make police and judges accountable for their mistakes. Instead of that, there continues to be the incentive to "achieve" a conviction - rather than establish the truth - and getting it wrong doesn't seem to be a consideration.
What is more of a puzzle and perhaps more distressing is how it seems so easy for convictions based on faulty and frankly dishonest investigations, to gain support among the general public.