LIHOP suffers a blow?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Straight from that bastion of "Left Coast" rabid Bush-fans; the LA Times.

My guess is probably not. LIHOPpers are no less religiously indoctrinated than MIHOPpers. Anything less than something wich would allow them to get completely carried away with thier unreasoning hatreds will probably be automatically discounted.

Interesting article either way. Even though (and I'm saying this as a Bush supporter) it just smells to me like someone is covering someone elses ass. I thought for sure Able Danger was going to lead somewhere, even if it was nothing more than one or more tragic blunders and missed opportunities.

I'm just suprised to see it end(?) so quietly, I guess.

 

[solidslade]

LIHOP : Let It Happen on Purpose.


That side of the movement has never really understood the implications of their "separation" from "MIHOP"



Let's analyze :

Let Happen.

Made Happen.

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I let it happen by watching and doing nothing."

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I made it happen by watching and doing nothing."



"I, an Agent of the US Government, have foreknowledge of terrorist plot to hijack planes and use them as crude incendiary missiles at US Civilian targets. I Let it Happen because I am incompetent and/or my administrators did nothing to stop them, and they just watched."

"I, an Agent of the US Government, have foreknowledge of terrorist plot to hijack planes and use them as crude incendiary missiles at US Civilian targets. I Made it Happen because I am incompetent and/or my administrators did nothing to stop them, and they just watched."


need more?

"I, an Agent of the US Government, have foreknowledge of terrorist plot to hijack planes and use them as crude incendiary missiles at US Civilian targets. I Let it Happen because I am am agent of the Illuminati, I am a conspirator and/or my administrators did nothing to stop them, and they just watched and they did it for oil, they did it to invade Iraq, they needed a reason for the patriot act etc."


"I, an Agent of the US Government, have foreknowledge of terrorist plot to hijack planes and use them as crude incendiary missiles at US Civilian targets. I Made it Happen because I am am agent of the Illuminati, I am a conspirator and/or my administrators did nothing to stop them, and they just watched and they did it for oil, they did it to invade Iraq, they needed a reason for the patriot act etc."


There is no dichotomy between their "movements".


All the fallacies of the Troofers belong to BOTH MIHOPers and LIHOPers. When one fails, the other automatically fails.

 

[eddyk]

I think by 'MIHOP' they mean 'CITHOP'

Caused it to happen on purpose...through planning.

That's what I think they mean by MIHOP anyway.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

That's a pretty silly post, Solidslade.

The reason 9/11 MIHOP conspiracy theories in general are hilariously silly is that they propose a conspiracy of vast scale doing things that make no sense. Building fake planes, planting bombs, planting evidence and so on. These theories are usually ridiculously baroque and always totally lacking in evidence.

The only thing LIHOP theories have in common with MIHOP theories is that in both cases they ask you to believe that people in the US government would want to see the USA attacked. It's far-fetched, but far less so than MIHOP fairy stories.

I will put it this way. If documentation emerged in the future proving that senior Bush administration officials knew exactly what Al Quaeda were planning before 11/9/2001, and the evidence withstood examination, I'd convert to being a LIHOP believer. I don't think that is likely to happen, but it's within the realm of what is possible.

 

[OMGturt1es]

All the fallacies of the Troofers belong to BOTH MIHOPers and LIHOPers. When one fails, the other automatically fails.

well, not really.

LIHOPers believe that america's government and central intelligence agency are full of heartless sociopaths that honestly all believed that the 911 attacks would better america, or, depending on how sinister the LIHOPer assumes the NWO to be, better themselves personally. that's retarded. MIHOPers believe the same thing that LIHOPers believe, but add on a new level of retardation by claiming that the WTC buildings were brought down by demolition, and that the planes were holograms/missels/remote controlled, which is just amazingly, incredibly, beyond retarded.

 

[Horatius]

LIHOP only requires evil intent on the part of a lot of people. Most MIHOP theories requires things that are physically impossible. Big difference, even if you think LIHOP is still incredibly unlikely.

I expect most CTists will ultimately become LIHOPers, once they finally get it through their skulls that MIHOP is impossible. Pd'oh did it, so can others.

 

[twinstead]

LIHOP IMO is the ONLY tenable conspiracy theory concerning 911. There is still little if any real evidence to support it, but at least proponents realize the official story is still the best explanation for the physics behind the event.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I let it happen by watching and doing nothing."

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I made it happen by watching and doing nothing."

a more apt analogy would be i made it happen by tossing the kitten on the tracks

thats the difference between LIHOP and MIHOP

LIHOP:
muslim terrorists exist
al qaeda exists
OBL exists
all of the above want to kill us
19 hijackers crashed planes into buildings on 9/11
the government could have prevented it, but chose not to

MIHOP:
no terrorists
no al qaeda
no OBL
everyone loves us
the government completely faked 9/11

 

[boloboffin]

Let me see: this will be dismissed by CTers because it's the...

...government investigating the government! Of course, the government gets off scot free!

Where's my million dollars?

 

[Biggie]

LIHOP : Let It Happen on Purpose.


That side of the movement has never really understood the implications of their "separation" from "MIHOP"



Let's analyze :

Let Happen.

Made Happen.

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I let it happen by watching and doing nothing."

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I made it happen by watching and doing nothing."

I don't agree with your second statement that failing to prevent something is the same as "making it happen", but that's a semantic issue that isn't important right now.

I've read a lot of 9/11 conspiracy theories and the difference between LIHOP and MIHOP is something like this

LIHOP:
"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I let it happen by watching and doing nothing."

MIHOP:
"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I made it happen by placing the kitten on the tracks.

or

"I saw a highspeed train maul a small kitten on the train tracks. I made it happen by driving the train over the cat"

In other words, LIHOPers believe al Qaeda planned and carried out the attacks by itself. The US government knew about the terror plot but didn't stop it for whatever reason. MIHOPers think there would have been no attacks without our government planning and carrying them out. In the first case the attacks would have happened regardless of what our government knew. In the second case there would have been no attacks if Bush or whoever hadn't done them. The difference is between being an observer and being a direct actor.

 

[A W Smith]

Does this mean fishing hat guy has to change his lyrics?

 

[solidslade]

LIHOP IMO is the ONLY tenable conspiracy theory concerning 911. There is still little if any real evidence to support it, but at least proponents realize the official story is still the best explanation for the physics behind the event.

I see no difference between the movements. The overall "plot" may take different roads, but the main villain is the same.

Remember LIHOPs implications about the government are the same as MIHOPS :

The government is "evil".
The government partook in the conspiracy.


Government, is a HUGE character. It involves the Agents, administrators, its assistants and its capabilities.

Imagine this conversation before the hijackings :

Agent A : They are ignoring our warnings. I hate suits...

Agent B : Hmm, well it could be good for our policy making...

Agent A : What the hell?

Agent B : Well, remember Pearl Harbor?

Agent A : Yeah, it was a disaster.

Agent B : But it got the country into action......

Agent A : Dude, what are we doing now? We ARE in action. We've been cracking intel, warning tons of bureaucrats and mobilizing our military. Have you any idea how the NOCs have been operating the past 20 years after the Cold War? We've done nothing but focus on the Middle East!

Agent B : Well, I say let it happen. ***** Em dude.

Agent A : You have got to be insane. You are saying that I, an Agent whos sworn to protect American soil would let this catastrophe happen so I could get my country "into action"?

Agent B : Well they aren't doing enough!

Agent A : They aren't. But I am.

Agent B : They need something to wake em up!


The government ignoring warnings does not equal the government having a conspiracy.

I don't agree with your second statement that failing to prevent something is the same as "making it happen", but that's a semantic issue that isn't important right now.

The difference is between being an observer and being a direct actor.

It is an issue of semantics.

People in the "LIHOP" movement throw a lot of crap around.

"Government"

The whole government? The Agents who protect it? It's administrators? Who exactly? Which part exactly?

"Responsible"

For what? In which case?

"Agenda"

Whos agenda? The Agents who decided to protect this country but were constantly ignored? The thinktanks agenda to justify a middle east invasion?


Lotta other things. My problem with their usage is the lack of specifics. They always point to Cheney or Bush or whoever (And I do hate their guts btw) But does that necessarily mean they can be wholly responsible for the series of chaotic events that took place?


Imagine this conversation :

Cheney : Agent, you are to stop your operation, and just let it all happen, right now.

Agent : Well Mr Cheney, you can go F* ck yourself!

 

[solidslade]

a more apt analogy would be i made it happen by tossing the kitten on the tracks

thats the difference between LIHOP and MIHOP

LIHOP:
muslim terrorists exist
al qaeda exists
OBL exists
all of the above want to kill us
19 hijackers crashed planes into buildings on 9/11
the government could have prevented it, but chose not to

MIHOP:
no terrorists
no al qaeda
no OBL
everyone loves us
the government completely faked 9/11

That's the problem I have with the LIHOPers as well.

An entire government body, and its agents, purposely dropped the ball so it could happen?


I'm not implying the government is perfect, however its very hard to say all the agents and players responsible collectively let this whole thing slide.

Imagine this conversation :

Senior Agents : .... ok. We're to stand down and do nothing.

Rookie : You have got to be ******** me sir!

Senior Agent : It's from higher up, we can't do anything about it.

Rookie : The hell I can. Do you honestly think I would stop what I'm doing and just let this happen?

Senior Agent : well.....

Rookie : Even if I complied, don't you think I would testify to this in front of the American public? The press corps? To investigative journalists?



LIHOP does have one thing I can still speculate about however :

If an agent directly involved in the counter intelligence operation preceding 9/11 testifies in front of the whole world and implicates specific officials in the obstruction of justice, one could possible have criminal case that will dissolve the current administrations sanction as an executive branch of government.


That's a real conspiracy. Which has yet to be proven.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

That's the problem I have with the LIHOPers as well.

An entire government body, and its agents, purposely dropped the ball so it could happen?


I'm not implying the government is perfect, however its very hard to say all the agents and players responsible collectively let this whole thing slide.

Imagine this conversation :

Senior Agents : .... ok. We're to stand down and do nothing.

Rookie : You have got to be ******** me sir!

Senior Agent : It's from higher up, we can't do anything about it.

Rookie : The hell I can. Do you honestly think I would stop what I'm doing and just let this happen?

Senior Agent : well.....

Rookie : Even if I complied, don't you think I would testify to this in front of the American public? The press corps? To investigative journalists?



LIHOP does have one thing I can still speculate about however :

If an agent directly involved in the counter intelligence operation preceding 9/11 testifies in front of the whole world and implicates specific officials in the obstruction of justice, one could possible have criminal case that will dissolve the current administrations sanction as an executive branch of government.


That's a real conspiracy. Which has yet to be proven.

see LIHOp is the conspiracy that actually could be just a few people, it only takes one level of the chain of command to decide to throw the memo in the garbage

of course its near impossible to prove they did it with malicious intent, so LIHOP pretty much becomes a moot point

personally i prefer LIHOPer to MIHOPers because at least LIHOP recognizes terrorism as a threat

 

[Biggie]

It is an issue of semantics.

People in the "LIHOP" movement throw a lot of crap around.

"Government"

The whole government? The Agents who protect it? It's administrators? Who exactly? Which part exactly?

"Responsible"

For what? In which case?

"Agenda"

Whos agenda? The Agents who decided to protect this country but were constantly ignored? The thinktanks agenda to justify a middle east invasion?


Lotta other things. My problem with their usage is the lack of specifics. They always point to Cheney or Bush or whoever (And I do hate their guts btw) But does that necessarily mean they can be wholly responsible for the series of chaotic events that took place?


Imagine this conversation :

Cheney : Agent, you are to stop your operation, and just let it all happen, right now.

Agent : Well Mr Cheney, you can go F* ck yourself!

If I remember correctly, noted 9/11 conspiracy theorist Mike Ruppert says the number of government officials was quite small. Yes, I managed to actually make it through his book Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil

I can only remember two off the top of my head:

1) Dick Cheney, the mastermind and controller of the whole thing

2) An agent in the FBI's Radical Fundamentalist Unit named Dave Frasca, who was responsible for squashing any investigations that might expose the plot prior to 9/11

 

[solidslade]

If I remember correctly, noted 9/11 conspiracy theorist Mike Ruppert says the number of government officials was quite small. Yes, I managed to actually make it through his book Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil

I can only remember two off the top of my head:

1) Dick Cheney, the mastermind and controller of the whole thing

2) An agent in the FBI's Radical Fundamentalist Unit named Dave Frasca, who was responsible for squashing any investigations that might expose the plot prior to 9/11

bolding mine.

thats exactly the problem with these folks.

Where are the investigative journalists?

Where are the federal prosecutors?

None.

Unless they have credible sources and investigators, NOT THEORISTS, I'm just gonna keep rolling my eyes.

 

[geggy]

In the past 5 years the neocons, homeland security and the bush administration have proven themselves treacherous enough by exploiting and abusing 9/11 for the reason of political expediency to allow it to happen because they knew it would provide them many opportunities.

Clearly, their motto is, "For every devastation there is an opportunity."

 

[defaultdotxbe]

In the past 5 years the neocons, homeland security and the bush administration have proven themselves treacherous enough by exploiting and abusing 9/11 for the reason of political expediency to allow it to happen because they knew it would provide them many opportunities.

Clearly, their motto is, "For every devastation there is an opportunity."

its always amazed me how truthers can seemingly flip flop from MIHOP to LIHOP and back again whenever the conversation suits them, as if they werent 2 mutually exclusive theories

 

[solidslade]

its always amazed me how truthers can seemingly flip flop from MIHOP to LIHOP and back again whenever the conversation suits them, as if they werent 2 mutually exclusive theories

Kinda like the Republicans during the Clinton years.



CTers don't realize they can't have their Neocon Agenda with Illuminatii Covert Controlled Demolition Teams, AND eat it too.

 

[T.A.M.]

In the past 5 years the neocons, homeland security and the bush administration have proven themselves treacherous enough by exploiting and abusing 9/11 for the reason of political expediency to allow it to happen because they knew it would provide them many opportunities.

Clearly, their motto is, "For every devastation there is an opportunity."

Merry Xmas everyone.

Geggy, do you really think the actions/mindset of the BUSH administration are unique to them. USGs of the past, and no doubt the future will take advantage of tragedy for Political and or Economic Gain, EOS...either learn to live with it, or do something about it...Whining gets you nowhere.

TAM