Lightning strikes

[Mosquito]

Hi,

I often find myself walking the rivers/streets in this city when it is raining. And when it rains, it pours down and there is a huge number of lightning strikes. Sometimes there is one every 2-3 seconds. And this goes on for a couple of hours. It's like the friggin' cat-walk...

Now, I can stay indoors at least some of the times, but this is not always convenient (i.e. sometimes I need to go home or go to buy some food). The show usually stops within a couple (1-4) of hours, but if I am going to get some sleep, I need to get some food and I need to go home, otherwise I will not be functioning the next day.

My problem is: just how dangerous is it to walk the rivers/streets during this stuff? Do I really need to consider the possibility to get fried?

I remember seeing on TV some recording from a soccer match in some African country where a lightning struck the corner flag. Several players half a field's width away just collapsed. Obviously they did not get struck (the strike got caught on film, and it was only one, in the corner), but the strike levelled them nonetheless.

This, to me, signifies that the energy from the strike travelled in the (possibly wet) grass and still had the strength to take down several people some 20-30 meters away.

Now, I do not think it is very likely that I, personally, will get struck wading around in the city. Most likely any strike will go for some house, phone-pole or other high-pointing structure. But. If a strike 30 meters away is potentially lethal (the African one seemed rather small, and no thunder was recorded), just how dangerous is this stuff?

Is it likely that I'll get fried, or are the infections and diseases I'll catch from the dirty water in the streets a bigger threat?


Mosquito (nervous)

 

[Chris Haynes]

I remember seeing a newsmagazine report many years ago about a bunch of high school kids who were injured (or killed!) when they took refuge under a tree. The lightning struck the tree (a high point) and the jolt transferred through the soil to the kids.

I looked at www.medlineplus.gov and got this website, which was one of many: http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZCDDAUP5D&sub_cat=104 with this

Avoid being the highest point in an open field, in contact with, or proximity to the highest point, as well as being on the open water. Do not take shelter under or near trees, flagpoles or light poles.

When I was a kid I used to walk on a causeway (basically a piece of land, or bridge, with water on either side). I once got caught in a storm... so I took refuge on the porch of a small building. As I watched two bolts of lightning hit the water on both sides of the causeway! Yikes (loud, bright and scary)!. The porch was made of wood and dry, so I was okay.

I think you need to think about how grounded you are. Hopefully someone more cognizant than me will answer. Rubber soles in shoes? Are you on a concrete sidewalk? What is the pathway for electricity?

 

[Hellbound]

Another effect recently discovered has occurred on at least one documented occassion, and is suggested as a possible explanation for many "FOD" incidents (Fell Over and Died) of hikers found lying on the trail.

The occassion in question was on a golf course, and a golfer took shelter under a tree. Lightning hit the tree, and the golfer fell over dead (cardiac failure). Lightning apparantly produces a respectable EMP pulse (part of why it messes with TV/radio reception and such), and if this occurs at just the correct time (during the repolarization wave of the heart) it can disrupt the heart's electrical system.

I'd be tempted to suggest that the fall overs other's remember are more likely due to this effect than to lightning travelling along the ground. Lightning travels to the ground, it's unlikely to go back up through you unless there's a path to some type of conductor, even then the question is why it would leave ground for another conductor. Not saying it couldn't happen, but doesn't seem too likely. The circuit is earth-to-sky (or vice versa), so once it hits earth that should be the end of it.

 

[Ladewig]

Lightning apparantly produces a respectable EMP pulse (part of why it messes with TV/radio reception and such), and if this occurs at just the correct time (during the repolarization wave of the heart) it can disrupt the heart's electrical system.

Would you provide some citations for the claims that lightning produces a "respectable EMP" and that a respectable EMP can disrupt the heart's electrical rhythm?

 

[Rob Lister]

Would you provide some citations for the claims that lightning produces a "respectable EMP" and that a respectable EMP can disrupt the heart's electrical rhythm?

Huntsman appears to be expressing his (perhaps novice) understanding of the matter ("Lightning apparantly produces...). He isn't necessarily making a claim one way or the other. He appears to be seeking correction. At least that's the way I took it.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

Lightning is the No. 2 direct weather killer in the United States (No. 1 in Florida).

It can be a very real danger and a storm such as you describe (2-3 heard strikes per second) represents a pretty violent storm.

If you do have to go outdoors, I suggest you travel in a car as it provides fairly good protection from even a direct strike.

The truly paranoid might buy a personal lightning detector, but such a device will not predict if a strike is going to hit you nor provide any early warning.

Ladewig, lightning does produce a strong, localized EMP. In fact, you can inexpensively purchase a device which counts lightning EMPs. But I've never heard of an EMP having any adverse affect on the human heart.

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/outdoors.htm

On a side note, there is a growing group of lightning detectors and strike counters setup by weather enthusiasts which may someday rival the professional systems.

http://www.lightningnetwork.org/lightning/

 

[Diamond]

Lightning is the No. 2 direct weather killer in the United States (No. 1 in Florida).

It can be a very real danger and a storm such as you describe (2-3 heard strikes per second) represents a pretty violent storm.

If you do have to go outdoors, I suggest you travel in a car as it provides fairly good protection from even a direct strike.

The truly paranoid might buy a personal lightning detector, but such a device will not predict if a strike is going to hit you nor provide any early warning.

Ladewig, lightning does produce a strong, localized EMP. In fact, you can inexpensively purchase a device which counts lightning EMPs. But I've never heard of an EMP having any adverse affect on the human heart.

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/outdoors.htm

On a side note, there is a growing group of lightning detectors and strike counters setup by weather enthusiasts which may someday rival the professional systems.

http://www.lightningnetwork.org/lightning/

The best place to be is inside a car or some other metal cage close to the ground.

 

[Hellbound]

Would you provide some citations for the claims that lightning produces a "respectable EMP" and that a respectable EMP can disrupt the heart's electrical rhythm?

Lightning EMP:
Here on Page 5

Here from Stanford

And here from Harvard

It's pretty well undisputed within the scientific community that lightning produces EMP. My use of the adjective "respectible" was probably misleading..depends on what you're relating it to, I suppose.

As to interfering with the heart, I picked up the info initially from a documentary/science show. The idea was that the EMP pulse had to occur at exactly the right time (during the repolarization phase of the heart...the small bump after the big spike in an EKG) and the person had to be relatively near a strike, this makes it a very unlikely event (given that being struck by lightning is pretty low odds to begin with). The theory was put forth because this person who died near a strike had no marks on him consistent with electrical burn, and calculations seemed to show that a small impulse at just the right time could do it (normally the amount of charge produced would not be an issue).

However, in a cursory search I am unable to find references to this, although I did find support for the idea of electrical charge travelling along the ground near a strike (so I retract my skeptical commentary regarding that portion). I'll see if I can at least find reference to the documentary I saw, that could give me more info to search with. Until I can find reliable info, I'll drop that part of my comment as well As Rob stated, I was simply ofering opinion and personal info, not trying to present fact.

 

[roger]

I think you need to think about how grounded you are. Hopefully someone more cognizant than me will answer. Rubber soles in shoes? Are you on a concrete sidewalk? What is the pathway for electricity?

Grounded? Problem is, the lightning travels from the ground to the sky (incidentally, not the other way around), so if you are grounded, then you are in a direct pathway for the electricity.

Rubber soles do nothing. Think about it - the lighting strike is able to tear through several miles of air, which is a very efficient insulator. It's not going to be affected by 1/4" of plastic/rubber.

As other's have suggested, being in a metal cage (a car) is the safest. The car acts like a faraday cage, and the electricity passes over the skin of the vehicle. It has nothing to do with the rubber tires, as is commonly supposed (see above about shoes).

If you are in the open, make sure you are in no way touching the ground, or anything around you, in 2 or more places, especially if the contact points pass through your chest. This is especially pertinent to rock climbers, who often get caught on a face during a storm, and due to their situation are holding on with hands and feet. Electricity, traveling along the surface, passes through the feet, out the hands, passing through the heart in the process. Owie. In other words, don't hunker down and use your arms for balance against the ground. Could be your last mistake.

 

[teddygrahams]

Rubber soles do nothing. Think about it - the lighting strike is able to tear through several miles of air, which is a very efficient insulator. It's not going to be affected by 1/4" of plastic/rubber.

I wouldn't call moist air a good insulator. I'll take 1/4" of rubber insulator over 1/4" dry air any day.

 

[Chris O.]

I wouldn't call moist air a good insulator. I'll take 1/4" of rubber insulator over 1/4" dry air any day.

The point is that neither are good enough insulators when it comes to a lightning strike.

And to answer the initial question. I've spent my entire life in and around thunderstorms, and while they are to be respected, the chances of you getting fried in the city or in a neighborhood are fairly slim. Usually it's a direct strike, and resulting electical burns that kill people, rather than heart failure due to EMP.

 

[Hellbound]

I'd agree with Chris. Especially in heavily built-up cities, the risk is minimal. And the EMP heart failure, if even accurate, is an extremely rare occurance. In cities, though, especially if taller buildings abound, lightning is highly unlikely to travel between buildings to you. Also, almost every buiding over a few stories high will have lightning rods, as well as almost any building that houses electronics. I'd say you danger is relatively slim unless you like to carry 3 meter antennas in the most open park you can find

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

I'd agree with Chris. Especially in heavily built-up cities, the risk is minimal. And the EMP heart failure, if even accurate, is an extremely rare occurance. In cities, though, especially if taller buildings abound, lightning is highly unlikely to travel between buildings to you. Also, almost every buiding over a few stories high will have lightning rods, as well as almost any building that houses electronics. I'd say you danger is relatively slim unless you like to carry 3 meter antennas in the most open park you can find

It's exactly this kind of "it won't hit me" attitude that gets people killed or seriously injured.

A person outdoors unprotected by a structure during the kind of storm Mosquito describes is at a serious, life threatening risk of being hit.

Remember folks, we're talking about huge amounts of electricity and heat. A strike need only hit a tree within dozens of meters of a walking person to cripple or kill.

Treat lightning with the respect it deserves. If you start to hear a thunderstorm getting closer (count the time between flash and boom), then it's time to head indoors.

 

[UrsulaV]

A buddy of mine back in college was out in a field during a lightning storm. There was a giant metal silo, and his thinking was evidentally something along those very same lines--"Aha! Lightning will strike the silo, not me, because it's so much higher and metal to boot, therefore I am relatively safe, and anyway I have rubber-soled sneakers on." (He was a nice kid, but not, perhaps, the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.)

Lightning hit the silo, arced, hit him, paralyzed him from the waist down, and he got to crawl on his hands half a mile to the road for help, which may have taught him an important lesson about not staying out in a thunderstorm. He stayed in the hospital for a few days until he got use of his lower half back. When I met him years later, the scorch marks had faded, but he said that the weirdest bit was that at no point did it ever really hurt. Terrifying, flattening, and incapacitating, but evidentally not painful. Go figure.

 

[Chris O.]

It's exactly this kind of "it won't hit me" attitude that gets people killed or seriously injured.

That's not the attitude i'm encouraging. I'm talking about a realistic attitude toward your individual situation. If you're hiding under the only tree in a large field, flying a kite. You're going to get hit. But moving in and around houses and buildings with lightning rods on the roof, and ground wires running down from them, your odds are fairly slim. It's the golfers standing on the green swinging aluminum clubs during a lightning storm that need to correct their attitude. The people who refuse to get out of the lake, or other bodies of water, that's an unhealthy attitude. So is hiding in your house, office or car until the storm clears. Some lightning shouldn't cause all life to freeze in it's tracks.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Grounded? Problem is, the lightning travels from the ground to the sky (incidentally, not the other way around), so if you are grounded, then you are in a direct pathway for the electricity.

Rubber soles do nothing. Think about it - the lighting strike is able to tear through several miles of air, which is a very efficient insulator. It's not going to be affected by 1/4" of plastic/rubber.

....

Thanks... I knew there were folks smarter than me on this subject.

 

[Bruce]

I've seen this twice before, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't my imagination....

Huge bolt of lightning, blue-green color, less than 3 miles away, persists for at least one second, and then sparkles as it dissippates (almost like fairy dust in cartoons).

It was an awesome and beautiful sight. I saw it with my family when I was about 12, and saw it again a couple of years ago with some friends. Everyone with me saw it because it lasted much longer than most lightning bolts and was extremely bright. I tried doing a google search on it, but didn't find anything.

Has anyone here seen this sort of thing before?

 

[Ladewig]

There is also a small risk of being injuried while using a (land-line) telephone during thunderstorms. About one person per year is killed in this manner.

 

[Hellbound]

That's not the attitude i'm encouraging. I'm talking about a realistic attitude toward your individual situation. If you're hiding under the only tree in a large field, flying a kite. You're going to get hit. But moving in and around houses and buildings with lightning rods on the roof, and ground wires running down from them, your odds are fairly slim. It's the golfers standing on the green swinging aluminum clubs during a lightning storm that need to correct their attitude. The people who refuse to get out of the lake, or other bodies of water, that's an unhealthy attitude. So is hiding in your house, office or car until the storm clears. Some lightning shouldn't cause all life to freeze in it's tracks.

Thank you, Chris. That was the point I was trying to get across, as well.

I'm not saying stand out in a field next to a silo, no. IN fact, I specifically stated avoid open areas.

However, depending on what he means by "city", it could well be that his risk is low. Walking downtown in Manhatten, for example, I'd imagine your chance of getting struck is only slightly higher than if you were underground.

It's not a "it won't hit me" attitude, but simply a realistic[ assessment of risks that are dependant upon the specific situation and circumstances that apply. By all means, if you're in any sort of open area, I agree 100%. If you've got skyscrapers along both sides of the street you're walking down, I don't believe the risk is high.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

Thank you, Chris. That was the point I was trying to get across, as well.

So, neither of you actually read Mosquito's post?