Light things.

[lifegazer]

We don't exist and after all

False. We have existence, but do not know who we really are.

And like I said elsewhere, the idea of infinite life is a drag.

As Wudang, perhaps. As God though?

I was once asked if I thought an embodied or disembodied afterlife would be worse and I decided that after the first few billion years it wouldn't make a difference.

Don't condemn what you do not know.

 

[Wudang]

False. We have existence, but do not know who we really are.

As Wudang, perhaps. As God though?

Don't condemn what you do not know.

But if God exists, nothing else can so you don't exist.

And I do know it because you've described it, remember?

 

[Phil]

Have you watched the news recently? Have you read your history books?
We've screwed each other - man against man, nation against nation, church against church. All divided. Result: inequality, war, terror, poverty, injustice, greed, indifference.
Where are our values? With money and comfort for the self and our immediate family first and foremost. We perpetuate the inequality and division passed onto us by previous generations. But guess what, it's not obligatory that this generation should make the same mistake as all previous generations.

You ask what difference it would make to know yourself as God... to know yourself in all people... to know all people in yourself. Those that know embrace humanity as their family... seek unity for mankind. One nation, no borders, an end to war and inequality. No more poverty.
One God, one people, all working for each other. Not through cohersion, but through realisation and desire.

You should care because your egotistical/selfish purposes are at odds with the truth of your identity and with unity for mankind.
Only unity will save mankind from self-oblivion. Division means death.

Well, I agree that there is a lot that needs fixing on this planet, but I don't think it's valid to place the blame for what's wrong in the world on the fact that people aren't aware of or believe that they are all actually the same thing. Nor is it valid to assume that a sudden coming together over your ideas would end all the hard times and suffering.

I, and a lot of people I know, don't buy into that idea, and we not only don't contribute to the world's ills, but often take steps to alleviate them where possible. I don't think you can conclude that: not knowing = bad, and knowing = good. Since many nontheists (or non-collective consciousnessists) and many theists (or collective consciousnessists) are actually good people with only the best for humanity in mind, it appears more likely that separate consciousnesses allow for the disparity.

Personally, I like people. All people. I have a great time living life, and I don't wish harm to befall anyone. In short, I approach life just as you suggest only those that "know" can approach it. The only difference is I don't have to grasp onto any far-fetched philosophical notions to conduct myself that way. I need only have compassion and value life highly; two things that don't require a collective or all-encompassing "us-ness".

Since I, and many people that don't adhere to your philosophy, behave this way already, I'd have to say that you haven't convinced me that your philosophy would change anything.

 

[RandFan]

You saw no meaning in my philosophy. You saw no meaning in the fact that you - according to my philosophy - are God. It was my meaning you attacked.
Now if you cannot see the significance of being God - to you and to all mankind - then you are stupid. Really, you are.

Why am I stupid? Just because being a god is important to you? why should it be important to me? I don't want to be something or someone else. Hell to me is living someone else's existence.

I'm not like you. I value my individuality. I like who I am. I see no discernable difference between not existing and existing as god. Both have the same net effect. I cease to be as I am, who I am.

If your philosophy is that those who do not think like you are stupid then I can only say that you have a stupid philosophy. I have always found that believers in god ultimately have contempt for those who do not share their belief. So you are no different than any other bible thumper. You can't imagine that I am not enthralled with your philosophy so you label me stupid.

Luckily for me that this is the 21st century and stoning heretics is no longer in fashion.

 

[RandFan]

Don't condemn what you do not know.

Don't exalt what you don't know.

 

[uruk]

How do we know that they are there until we have sensed their existence, somehow?

What about the universal background radiation. We did not know of it's existance until we invented the radio-telescope. Are you saying the radiation did not exist untill we invented the radio-telescope?

The universe we participate in is internal to our awareness. Exactly like a dream. Our physical laws relate to the order within our awareness.

You just assume that the universe is an illusion based on the fact that we processes the sensory input internaly. The fact is that you can not prove one way or the other wether the universe is real or not. It is a choice that you have made based on assumptions. That our "perceptions" are internal has no bearing what-so-ever on the existance or non-existance of an external reality.

Any entity which experiences abstract existence is the primal-cause of that existence. I.e., that entity chose to create sensations, thoughts & feelings, for itself and by itself.

Are you saying a blind person choses to be blind, a colorblind choses not to see certain colors, A heartattack victim choses to have a heartattack? Are you saying the people who died in terrorist attacks all chose to create the explosions they died in together at the very same time? Are you saying that a rape victim chose to have the experiance of being brutilized? Or that John and Robert Kennedy chose to experiance an assasination?
Are you saying that getting killed in an accident is a abstract experiance?
Thoughts are created by the individual, sensations are caused by stimulus. The individual does not create the stimulus, just processes them.

You did not give proof, only assertions in the guise of poetry.

What?? You just made that up. I've been plugging for world unity.

that is the implication of your philosophy. If we chose to create our own sensations and are the primal cause of existance then existance is here because of us for us. That is anthropocentricizm.
That the universe is here for our amusement. quite alot of universe wasted on a light show just for little 'ol us.

Now, we all know that colours are subjective. I.e., they do not exist objectively, in any external universe.

This is what in rhetoric we call "bandwagonizm" with a bit of non sequitor thrown in. In the first part you assume "we all" accept your assertion that colors are subjective. (if everyone accepts that "red" is "red" then it becomes objective, but I assume your using a different definition for objective) The non sequiter your committing is in asserting that because colours are "subjective" that there is no objective external universe. I'm sorry but that is a fallicy. Faulty logic. Just because color is subjective, it does not follow that photons of a specific wavelength do not exist objectively or an external obejctive universe does not exist. You have to do better than using fallacious logic as proof.

Even science recognises the workings of the subconscious.

Nowhere does science say that our subconsciouses are all connected to each other in any fashion.
It just says that there are parts of our mind which operate with out our conscious awarness. Hence "sub" or "below" our consciousness

There can be nothing external to an intangible realm of existence. By default.

This is just playing with the definitions of words. You need to be clearer. By default (of the definitions of the terms) existance is not intangible. You are abusing the language and (hopefully not purposefully) confusing the issue.
An object can exist externally to the mind. the mind percieves the object via senses (the link between the outside(existance) to the inside (the mind). The value we give the sensory input is intangible (i.e. the "image" that we see, the sensations we feel, the thoughts provoked by the stimulus, the qualities we apply to the stimulus) The things that are intangible are the things we can not hold or touch like the happyness we feel when we see a loved one. the loved one we see is real and tangible. the happiness we feel is not.

You still have not explained or shown why this existance or universe is not real or an illusion. All you keep saying is that since our experiance is internal the universe can not be real. One does not follow the other. (non sequiter) The logic is faulty.

 

[uruk]

You ask what difference it would make to know yourself as God... to know yourself in all people... to know all people in yourself. Those that know embrace humanity as their family... seek unity for mankind. One nation, no borders, an end to war and inequality. No more poverty.

Knowing that we are all the same; human; with the same hopes and desires, does not change us.
Knowing that we are are all god; the same fundamental entity will not change us either.
Many religions in the past have tried to do the same thing but failed miserably.
The rub, my friend, is in human nature. We all want to be safe secure and happy and in a general sense we want the same for our fellow man. But situations arise where the happines, security and the well being of one person conflicts with those of another. That is when problems arise. Are you willing to give up your happiness so that another may have his? (this is a bad example, but this what I could come up with on short notice)
Let's say that you want to build your house on a particular spot with a view that is beautiful (it makes you happy). Say some one else also wants to build his house on that same same spot for that same view. Are you willing to sacrifice for his happiness, or do you want him to sacrifice? Do you really want to split the house or location or share the house? What if your wife hates the spot? What level of happiness are you willing to accept?

And what about resources? Especially if there is not enough for everybody? Who is going to be willing to sacrifice?

 

[c4ts]

False. We have existence, but do not know who we really are.

We have existence, but nobody knows how to make sense of lifegazer. I keep wanting to call him "lightbrainzer" for some reason...

 

[RandFan]

Any entity which experiences abstract existence is the primal-cause of that existence. I.e., that entity chose to create sensations, thoughts & feelings, for itself and by itself.

Which brings us right back to the room experiment. Is it ok if we lock you in a room without food, water or toliet untill you disavow this silly notion?

The truth is you can't decide how real existence is.

 

[lifegazer]

You just assume that the universe is an illusion based on the fact that we processes the sensory input internaly. The fact is that you can not prove one way or the other wether the universe is real or not. It is a choice that you have made based on assumptions. That our "perceptions" are internal has no bearing what-so-ever on the existance or non-existance of an external reality.

Let me spell it out for you. We can confirm existence solely through a reasoning/emotional awareness of intangible things which have their existence amongst the internal abstract sensations of our mind.
Our existence is completely internal to the self/awareness/mind. Emphasis full-stop.
We neither know of nor can reason for (true!!) the existence of a realm external to "perception world". No soul has ever glimpsed a thing beyond his own awareness or self!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Emphasis justified.

Furthermore, we can know that our Mind is the creator of the [abstract/intangible/subjective] sensations, thoughts & feelings, which constitute the experience of "me" (or whomever). I explained why already - the external universe (if it did exist) neither knows of nor cares for nor possesses the power to impose such experiences upon an entity which has them.
It is bleedin obvious that any entity which has such experiences is the primal-cause of those things.

So, what are we left with? We are left with an intangible (boundless and non-material) Mind which has exhibited the properties of a primal-cause to create the awareness of an internal universe of relative being.

Nothing truly exists external to an intangible entity, by default. To ponder the existence of a reality outside of non-spatial reality is absurd.

Are you saying a blind person choses to be blind, a colorblind choses not to see certain colors, A heartattack victim choses to have a heartattack?

People don't exist except as beliefs and perceptions of God. Only God exists. God chose to experience the world as it is. God created the world as it is perceived. God experiences the world as it was created.
Within my philosophy, there is no other. There is only God. The people I converse with do not understand this. They continue to ask me stupid questions like when did I (uruk) choose to have this or that. Yet the truth is that uruk chose nothing. Uruk did nothing. Uruk is nothing. I'm not being offensive here as I'm actually trying to tell you that you are God the experiencer who has - as ordained - forgotten that you (God) are also God the creator.

You cannot know that you chose to experience pain

Lifegazer chose zilch. Lifegazer is an experience, just like pain (no jokes please), happening within the awareness of God.

Are you saying that getting killed in an accident is a abstract experiance?

God has the experience of death. But like everything else, it's an illusion. God does not die. I personally believe that this was the primary message espoused at the cruxifiction/resurrection of Christ - God giving the finger to death - but that's another convo.

 

[lifegazer]

Which brings us right back to the room experiment. Is it ok if we lock you in a room without food, water or toliet untill you disavow this silly notion?

The truth is you can't decide how real existence is.

Do you not listen to my responses?
I am not denying the reality of the experience. All I am saying is that the experience is happening in relation to things that do not exist. Same principal as a sleeping-dream, where you have experience and emotion in relation to things and people that do not exist.
Lock me in a room and I'll have the experience of starvation, probably. But this doesn't take me beyond the reality of God, as discussed.

 

[lifegazer]

Why am I stupid?

You're stupid because you cannot understand the simplicity of my philosophy nor that "I am God" would have profound implications both for "yourself" and the rest of mankind.

Just because being a god is important to you? why should it be important to me? I don't want to be something or someone else. Hell to me is living someone else's existence.

I'm asking you to be yourself - God. That's my philosophy. And the fact that you still don't understand that philosophy and come out with garbage like this is just magnifying your stupidity.

I'm not like you. I value my individuality.

Who are you Randfan? Put your being on a plate for all to see and then explain where your individuality came from.
You're a joker. You possess nothing that was not given to you. You have nothing, least of all individuality.

I like who I am.

Lucky you. Young, American? No bleedin wonder. See if you say the same thing in 50 years, if you're still around.

I see no discernable difference between not existing and existing as god. Both have the same net effect. I cease to be as I am, who I am.

You seem unaware of the ability to change.

I have always found that believers in god ultimately have contempt for those who do not share their belief. So you are no different than any other bible thumper. You can't imagine that I am not enthralled with your philosophy so you label me stupid.

You're stupid because you do not see the implications of my philosophy upon your puny ego. Also, you're probably very frightened. Most people envisage that the death of the ego is the death of the self.

Luckily for me that this is the 21st century and stoning heretics is no longer in fashion.

I'm in this forum to save lunatics, not to stone them. I do my job and that's all I can do. Sometimes, that job entails making individuals aware of the fact that the average skeptic is not so much a hero but a friggin moron. It's a wake-up call. But you're free to go back to sleep. I'm fast losing interest here.

 

[RandFan]

Do you not listen to my responses?

Sure, but they are inconsistent.

I am not denying the reality of the experience.

So it is real?

All I am saying is that the experience is happening in relation to things that do not exist.

Huh? What things that do not exist? Could you be a bit clearer here?

Same principal as a sleeping-dream, where you have experience and emotion in relation to things and people that do not exist.

Ah, but I can fly in my dreams and the laws of physics do not apply. I can exit my bedroom and enter a casino at the same time. I can be someone else. I can be with my friend who instantly turns into Robert Goulet (this really troubles me BTW, why him? probably something latent). In any event the dream metaphor is useful to understand that all reality is perceived (I did take philosophy gazer) not to mention I watched the Matrix 10 times and I have watched nearly every twilight marathon and read every major sci fi book. I get the concept.

Lock me in a room and I'll have the experience of starvation, probably.

NO! Not probably. You will starve and you will experience extreme thirst. Your bladder and bowels will hurt so bad that you will no longer be able to control them. You WILL defecate and urinate and the smells will force you to sit as far away as possible. In a short time you will develop sores on your anus and in your crotch region. Long Before you die you will in all likely hood beg to be let out.

There is no alternative, no "probably".

But this doesn't take me beyond the reality of God, as discussed.

It illustrates the absurdity to suppose that the material world doesn't actually exist.

 

[lifegazer]

We have existence, but nobody knows how to make sense of lifegazer. I keep wanting to call him "lightbrainzer" for some reason...

"Sometimes, that job entails making individuals aware of the fact that the average skeptic is not so much a hero but a friggin moron."

Stay away from my threads unless you're willing to grow-up and say something sensible. Pr**k.

Edited so as to keep the other pr**ks off my back.

 

[lifegazer]

It illustrates the absurdity to suppose that the material world doesn't actually exist.

Everything I say goes over your head.
The experience of death, sickness, pain, or whatever, is an experience occuring within awareness.
Pain is a subjective experience. It's about as meaningless to the universe as is death itself. Such things only have meaning within the awareness of an entity which imposes those experiences upon itself, fundamentally.

Btw, when I said the experience is real and then began to discuss sleep-dreams, I was merely trying to show what I meant.
I.e., in dreams, the experience is real but nothing else is. Similarly, conscious sensations (from whence unreal "things" are plucked), are party to the corresponding reality of emotions and thought. So sensations, thoughts & emotions, are real. But nothing else is - certainly not within awareness.

 

[RandFan]

You're stupid because you cannot understand the simplicity of my philosophy nor that "I am God" would have profound implications both for "yourself" and the rest of mankind.

I understand the implications. They have no value to me.

I'm asking you to be yourself - God. That's my philosophy. And the fact that you still don't understand that philosophy and come out with garbage like this is just magnifying your stupidity.

I don't want to be god. There is no evidence or reason to believe that I am god. On the contrary, all of the evidence points to the big bang, abiogenesis, evolution, natural selection and statistics.

Who are you Randfan?

Me! I don't mean to be flippant but I am my biology and a collection of memories. I fancy that I exist beyond my physical body but I have no evidence to support that notion so I live as though I don't.

Put your being on a plate for all to see and then explain where your individuality came from.
You're a joker. You possess nothing that was not given to you. You have nothing, least of all individuality.

Having been on the side of Dualism in many debates I can say that I understand to a small degree how I can explain individuality from a materialistic standpoint.

Lucky you. Young, American? No bleedin wonder. See if you say the same thing in 50 years, if you're still around.

If I am lucky I will grow old and die. I might suffer my Father-in-law's fate who fell victim to alzheimers and ceased to be what he was. I guess he became god then. No thanks, I don't want it. I would rather die.

You seem unaware of the ability to change.

Not at all. Phineas Cage changed. I researched him for a university thesis. I would not want to be Phineas Cage. Francis Farmer changed also.

That I can change does not mean I want to.

You're stupid because you do not see the implications of my philosophy upon your puny ego.

Ah the ego, ain't it a bitch? What about your ego? You have found the truth and you know so much more than the rest of us. I admit my ego. I understand it. It does not bother me.

Also, you're probably very frightened. Most people envisage that the death of the ego is the death of the self.

Not frightened at all. I dealt with my mortality 10 years ago. I'm quite prepared.

I'm in this forum to save lunatics, not to stone them.

Ah, the Christ Complex. Or, is it in your case, the God Complex?

Sorry but I must digress.

Dr. Jed Hill, Malice (1993)
Which makes me wonder if this lawyer has any idea as to the kind of grades one has to receive in college to be accepted at a top medical school. Or if you have the vaguest clue as to how talented someone has be to lead a surgical team. I have an M.D. from Harvard.

I am board certified in cardiothoracic medicine and trauma surgery. I have been awarded citations from seven different medical journals in New England; and I am never, ever sick at sea.

So I ask you, when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry, or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death, or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, you go ahead and read your bible, Dennis, and you go to your church and with any luck you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17th, and he doesn't like to be second guessed.

You ask me if I have a God complex? Let me tell you something I AM GOD, and this side show is over.

I love that scene.

I do my job and that's all I can do. Sometimes, that job entails making individuals aware of the fact that the average skeptic is not so much a hero but a friggin moron. It's a wake-up call. But you're free to go back to sleep. I'm fast losing interest here.

Sorry, but I am anything but asleep. 10 years ago I made a commitment to find the truth.

There was a problem, how does one find the truth? There are many churches and many philosophies. People are so certain that they are right that some kill themselves, some give all their property and time to a belief. Yet there are contradictions in all of these beliefs. There is only one way to truth. Objectivity and critical thought.

Truth isn't what we want it to be, it's what is.

 

[uruk]

Let me spell it out for you. We can confirm existence solely through a reasoning/emotional awareness of intangible things which have their existence amongst the internal abstract sensations of our mind.

Sorry. We experiance "existance" via our perceptions. Those perceptions are built in responses to stimuli. Our experiance is our mind processing those responses. And again, those "internal abstract sensation of our mind" have no bearing what so ever on the existance or non-existance of an external reality

Our existence is completely internal to the self/awareness/mind. Emphasis full-stop.We neither know of nor can reason for (true!!) the existence of a realm external to "perception world". No soul has ever glimpsed a thing beyond his own awareness or self!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Emphasis justified.

Furthermore, we can know that our Mind is the creator of the [abstract/intangible/subjective] sensations, thoughts & feelings, which constitute the experience of "me" (or whomever). I explained why already - the external universe (if it did exist) neither knows of nor cares for nor possesses the power to impose such experiences upon an entity which has them. It is bleedin obvious that any entity which has such experiences is the primal-cause of those things.

Our mind does not create those experiance. our mind responds to and processes stimuli. I do not create the sensations of touch or sound. they are built in responses to stimuli. I can not choose to not hear a loud noise. I can not choose to not see a bright light shining into my eyes. I DO NOT CREATE THE STIMULI! What I create are the values or opinons in response to those stimuli. Wether I think the car is ugly, or the light is pretty. Objects do not require a consciouseness to" impose" a sensation in me. If I am hit by an object which is comeing at me from a direction in which I am unaware of it existance, it will still "impose" a stimulus which will instagate a sensation in my mind. It will do it regaurdless of what I believe or what state of mind I am in. You have involutary responses to stimuli. reactions, both mental and physical, which you can not control. You are not the primal-cause of objective responses, i.e. sound, touch, sight. Those are "built-in" responses.

People don't exist except as beliefs and perceptions of God. Only God exists. God chose to experience the world as it is. God created the world as it is perceived. God experiences the world as it was created.

A meaningless shuffle. "We don't chose the experiance. God choses the experiance." But according to you philosophy; we are god. therfore we are chosing the experiance.

 

[RandFan]

Everything I say goes over your head.

Yeah, I understand how you feel. Everything I say goes over your head. And everything that everyone else says goes over your head.

The experience of death, sickness, pain, or whatever, is an experience occuring within awareness.

This is a good example. I GET IT. I got it 25 years ago reading science fiction and listening to my science teacher.

I understood it much better 20 years ago when I studied psychology, philosophy and solipsism at the University of Utah.

I have made this very point myself, many times on this very forum. There is no reason for you to continue this mantra. It won't make your assertion true.

Pain is a subjective experience. It's about as meaningless to the universe as is death itself.

This statement as far as I can tell is irrelevant and meaningless, so? We are not talking about the universe, we are talking about you.

Such things only have meaning within the awareness of an entity which imposes those experiences upon itself, fundamentally.

If I take a gun and force you in a room and lock you in and you can't get out then you have no choice whether or not to experience pain. It's a done deal and if you don't get out you die.

Btw, when I said the experience is real and then began to discuss sleep-dreams, I was merely trying to show what I meant. I.e., in dreams, the experience is real but nothing else is. Similarly, conscious sensations (from whence unreal "things" are plucked), are party to the corresponding reality of emotions and thought.

For the last time, I understand. That is why I said what I said. I understand the concept, ok?

So sensations, thoughts & emotions, are real. But nothing else is - certainly not within awareness.

If the external is not real and only exists as a perception in the internal then it is logical that the internal has control of the external perception (please see dreams).

The room experiment proves that the internal ultimately does not control the external. Thus increasing by orders of magnitude the likely hood that the external is real.

RandFan

 

[lifegazer]

I understand the implications. They have no value to me.

That's irrelevant. You asked me what the implications were of accepting my philosophy. Saying that "They have no value to me" is a position not accepting of my philosophy.

I don't want to be god. There is no evidence or reason to believe that I am god. On the contrary, all of the evidence points to the big bang, abiogenesis, evolution, natural selection and statistics.

What is the source/origin of all that you just mentioned?

Me! I don't mean to be flippant but I am my biology and a collection of memories.

Who is having the memories?

I fancy that I exist beyond my physical body but I have no evidence to support that notion so I live as though I don't.

LOLOLOLOLOL.
Show me one jot of proof that you have a physical body and I will show my butt on the nearest highstreet.

I would rather die.

Then die you shall.

Ah, the Christ Complex. Or, is it in your case, the God Complex?

I proclaim nothing of myself that I do not proclaim for all others. Spare me the boring sarcasm.

 

[lifegazer]

"The experience of death, sickness, pain, or whatever, is an experience occuring within awareness."

I have made this very point myself, many times on this very forum. There is no reason for you to continue this mantra. It won't make your assertion true.

Don't be a mug. Concepts such as death and sickness and pain have no meaning beyond that existing within our own awareness. Show me, for example, any part of the universe (outside of "life") that can be considered as dead, sick, or in pain.

If I take a gun and force you in a room and lock you in and you can't get out then you have no choice whether or not to experience pain. It's a done deal and if you don't get out you die.

Big deal. The whole scenario occurs within awareness, played out upon my sensations. I.e., everything will happen within the reality of Mind. Fact.