Lifegazer's special relativity "proof"

[Upchurch]

now the twin is under constant acceleration (a very large acceleration too). Now you are talking general relativity. Its clear that for the other twin to be 20, the earth must orbit the sun 20 times. This is no longer the twin paradox.

No it doesn't matter whether the space twin's acceleration is instantanious or spread out over the entire length of the trip, the problem can still be described using special relativity. I've done this one ad nauseum.

However, in the twin paradox, I might ask you this, right before the twin turns around, how many times will he see the earth orbit the sun? If he corrects for the time it took the light to reach him, how many times? Is it 5? is it 10? Is it another number alltogether?

You are correct though, as the space twin slows down to turn around, the light from the earth catches up and the earth appears to spin much faster around the sun to the space twin.

 

[lifegazer]

As the sun is (more or less) in the same inertial frame as the earth, the space twin will see the earth orbit the sun 20 times.

So, the earth-twin sees 20 resolutions of the earth around the sun. He sees mercury orbit the sun x times, mars y times, and jupiter z times. Likewise, the spacetwin.
What I am gathering from your answer is that the spacetwin will see "the heavenly bodies" move exactly the same way as the earth-twin observes them? This must be so, given your last answer.

So my next question is this: If the spacetwin sees "the heavens" exactly as the earthtwin sees them, then how the hell does the spacetwin experience a ~normal 10 years~ whilst his brother experiences a ~normal 20 years~?

 

[RussDill]

No it doesn't matter whether the space twin's acceleration is instantanious or spread out over the entire length of the trip, the problem can still be described using special relativity. I've done this one ad nauseum.

really? I would think with the amount of acceleration, there would be an additional slowing of the twins clock. (similar if the other twin stopped over for a break on jupiter for a few years). I've never done the math on an orbiting twin though (orbiting near the speed of light within the solar system, so angular acceleration would be considerable)

You are correct though, as the space twin slows down to turn around, the light from the earth catches up and the earth appears to spin much faster around the sun to the space twin. [/B]

I'm interesting in lifegazer determining how many years the twin would observe passing on earth on the twins trip out, and the twins trip back, ie, is it 50/50? (answers with and without the doppler effect)

 

[RussDill]

So, the earth-twin sees 20 resolutions of the earth around the sun. He sees mercury orbit the sun x times, mars y times, and jupiter z times. Likewise, the spacetwin.
What I am gathering from your answer is that the spacetwin will see "the heavenly bodies" move exactly the same way as the earth-twin observes them? This must be so, given your last answer.

So my next question is this: If the spacetwin sees "the heavens" exactly as the earthtwin sees them, then how the hell does the spacetwin experience a ~normal 10 years~ whilst his brother experiences a ~normal 20 years~?

First, the heavens are not an absolute frame of reference. Especially if you look at the "heavens" that are far away, since they are traveling away from us at high velocities.

You forgot that the spacetwin is accelerating, constantly in this case. If the spacetwin was traveling straight through, he'd see the year happening much slower.

Add to this that the spacetwin sure wouldn't see the solar system "normally". He'd wouldn't see anything behind him, or to the sides, only a disc of light in front of him. This disc of light would be a warped "image" of the solar system. If he had handy computers that would do some unwarping, he would see a very funny looking eliptical solar system.

Do you refute the resolution of the twin paradox? Do you even know the resolution of the twin paradox?

 

[Upchurch]

What I am gathering from your answer is that the spacetwin will see "the heavenly bodies" move exactly the same way as the earth-twin observes them? This must be so, given your last answer.

Only in terms that space twin will witness that the events happen. As to the the relative timing and order in which the events occur, that becomes a much more complicated problem.

Mercury orbits the Sun at relativistic speeds (calculating it's orbit was one of the first tests Einstein's theory successfully predicted). Pluto is incredibly far away and moves at verying speeds. I was idealizing the problem to the extreme when I said the Sun was in Earth's inertial reference frame. For other solar systems outside Earth's, I really can't say with any certainty who will see what when. A three body relativity problem can be hellish to calculate, speaking of all heavenly bodies is damn near impossible, at least for my TI-85.

So my next question is this: If the spacetwin sees "the heavens" exactly as the earthtwin sees them, then how the hell does the spacetwin experience a ~normal 10 years~ whilst his brother experiences a ~normal 20 years~?

Well, first, they don't see them exactly the same. As mentioned above, the space twin will see the earth spinning past the sun at different speeds during different poritons of his trip. Only when they are in the same inertial reference frame will they agree on what has occured, even though they may not agree on when it occured, at least, from their own persepectives.

Seems to me you're digging for the simulanity that Russ was talking about earlier. That, or an absolute reference frame. You won't find either in the universe at large. They are a phenomenon you will only find locally at slow speeds.

 

[Upchurch]

really? I would think with the amount of acceleration, there would be an additional slowing of the twins clock. (similar if the other twin stopped over for a break on jupiter for a few years).

Well, that's exactly right. The amount of age difference is in direct proportion to the amount of the trip spent accelerating. The only thing is, and I may have this backwards, you can only calculate the information from the Earth point of view. To calculate it from the space twin's point of view would require GR.

 

[lifegazer]

If the spacetwin experiences a ~normal 10 years~ whilst the universe behaves as though it has aged 20 years, then the universe should appear to have accelerated to Mr. spacetwin, as though it was moving twice as fast as previous.
10 years for him and 20 for the universe.

 

[Upchurch]

If the spacetwin experiences a ~normal 10 years~ whilst the universe behaves as though it has aged 20 years, then the universe should appear to have accelerated to Mr. spacetwin, as though it was moving twice as fast as previous.
10 years for him and 20 for the universe.

Whoa. The universe and the Earth are two very different places, lifegazer. You're trying to use the Earth as an absolute reference frame and it isn't.

 

[lifegazer]

Whoa. The universe and the Earth are two very different places, lifegazer. You're trying to use the Earth as an absolute reference frame and it isn't.

Wait a minute yourself. You're the one who told me that both twins will observe heavenly bodies moving in the exact-same manner. I.e., you said that both twins would observe the earth move around the sun 20 times. Are you absolutely sure about this?
If you are, then be advised that both twins would see all heavenly bodies moving in the exact-same manner. How for example, could both twins observe earth go around the sun 20 times, yet see mars go around the sun a different number of times?
So you see, if they see earth behave the same, then they see all heavenly bodies behave the same. Hence at the end of the day, the spacetwin would age 10 years whilst observing the universe age 20.
Something fishy is in the air!

 

[RussDill]

Whoa. The universe and the Earth are two very different places, lifegazer. You're trying to use the Earth as an absolute reference frame and it isn't.

like I said, he just wants to believe that relativity is inconsistent with reality, so we all must be in our own seperate universe. Thats why I'd like him to work out the math on all these problems, so he can see with his own eyes, that the universe is consitent. Throw in maxwell's equation's and galilean relativity, and the universe is consistent *because* of relativity.

There is no way I can make lifegazer work out these problems (he seems to ignore every though experiment I pose), I can't flunk him. I'm at a loss as to how to proceed with a rational discussion.

 

[Dancing David]

Now, lifegazer, dancing david will stare, and scratch his head. He'll think about it, he might go to google to learn more about special relativity. Lets see what he does, eh?


good question, especially because to the ship, the barn will be length contracted. Anywho, private message me the answer, and I'll let lifegazer know that you got it.

It has been a while since I have thought about the relativity paradox and I have thought about it since you pointed out the first error, but the second error is puzzling me.

I guess that i stated it wrong, I understand that the apparent conrattion takes place from either frame of reference, that was my mistake, I was thinking in terms of an observational frame of reference, which is a big mistake.

And I understand that he crux of the issue will depend on the fact that to the space ships frame of reference, everyone else is going the other way at .999999 the speed of light.

I shall have to ponder why I think that the space ship will percieve the other frame of reference as speeding up.

1. They can't observe it.

2. I think that I am compensating in an absolute frame of reference.

I shall ponder and ask more questions later>

It sure puts a spin on the twin paradox, intuitively I was assuming that the sapce twin will see time speeding up outside the frame of refereence, but counter intuitively they should see the frame outside going through slower time.

HMMMM! More pondering.

 

[RussDill]

Wait a minute yourself. You're the one who told me that both twins will observe heavenly bodies moving in the exact-same manner. I.e., you said that both twins would observe the earth move around the sun 20 times. Are you absolutely sure about this?

I thought he made it pretty clear that it wasn't the exact same manner. The spacetwin only sees the earth go around the sun 20 times because the spacetwin re-enters the earthtwin's reference frame.

If you are, then be advised that both twins would see all heavenly bodies moving in the exact-same manner. How for example, could both twins observe earth go around the sun 20 times, yet see mars go around the sun a different number of times?

ha, this is funny, because in many circumstances, the spacetwin could measure a year occuring on mars and a year on earth as proportionatly differently than the earthtwin. In fact, non of the celestial alignments that the eathtwin will see will happen at the same time for the spacetwin. The consistency arrives from the spacetwins constant changing of reference frames.

So you see, if they see earth behave the same, then they see all heavenly bodies behave the same. Hence at the end of the day, the spacetwin would age 10 years whilst observing the universe age 20.
Something fishy is in the air!

They certainly do not behave the same, like I said before, celestial alignments will certainly not happen as the do for the earth twin, and the speeds of planets in different positions in their orbit will not agree with the earthtwin (since the orbits are horrendusly elliptical to the spacetwin.

You can work the math out, its all very consistent.

Again, I ask, are you not aware of the solution for the twin paradox?

 

[RussDill]

It sure puts a spin on the twin paradox, intuitively I was assuming that the sapce twin will see time speeding up outside the frame of refereence, but counter intuitively they should see the frame outside going through slower time.

HMMMM! More pondering.

now you see why its such a paradox. einstein stuggled for many years on these types of paradoxes, I have even read that he contemplated suicide before finding the solutions. It seems far fetched, but boltzmann did commit suicide after failing to show that time is not reversable (it didn't help that he was crazy). Course, I can't find any good sources on the einstein thing.

 

[lifegazer]

There are two choices: They both see the universe age 20 years or they don't.
Given the former answer, we're left contemplating a spacetwin who experiences 10 years of time whilst the universe ages 20.
And given the latter choice, we're left contemplating 2 different realities occuring simultaneously.

 

[RussDill]

Something fishy is in the air!

so, your claim is that special relativity is an inconsistent theory (at least the way that einstein proposed it)

 

[lifegazer]

so, your claim is that special relativity is an inconsistent theory (at least the way that einstein proposed it)

Actually, I'm trying to show that everyone sees their own universe, which is a proof that each universe is Mind-generated.

 

[RussDill]

Actually, I'm trying to show that everyone sees their own universe, which is a proof that each universe is Mind-generated.

I know thats what you are trying to show. Your intermediate step seems to be to show that einsteins version of special relativity is inconsistent with itself/and or reality, is this correct?

 

[RussDill]

There are two choices: They both see the universe age 20 years or they don't.
Given the former answer, we're left contemplating a spacetwin who experiences 10 years of time whilst the universe ages 20.
And given the latter choice, we're left contemplating 2 different realities occuring simultaneously.

You cannot see the "universe" age. There is no way to observe space to determine the passing of time. There is no absolute frame of reference to determine that the universe has aged 20 years. Time does not even pass at the same rate on the earth as it does on the sun.

 

[RussDill]

There are two choices: They both see the universe age 20 years or they don't.
Given the former answer, we're left contemplating a spacetwin who experiences 10 years of time whilst the universe ages 20.
And given the latter choice, we're left contemplating 2 different realities occuring simultaneously.

he sees the solar system age 20 years, not the universe. BTW, you still haven't answered, did you know that the twin paradox has been resolved?

 

[lifegazer]

I know thats what you are trying to show. Your intermediate step seems to be to show that einsteins version of special relativity is inconsistent with itself/and or reality, is this correct?

Not at all. It is my intention to make sense of what Einstein tells us, no matter how bizarre it seems.

You cannot see the "universe" age. There is no way to observe space to determine the passing of time.

A cycle of the earth around the sun is equivalent to a year of time.
Simply by observing the earth, the spacetwin could keep tabs of 'normal time', so to speak. 20 revolutions is equivalent to 20 normal years.

he sees the solar system age 20 years, not the universe.

As I said earlier, if they see one heavenly body moving the same, then they see all heavenly bodies moving the same.

BTW, you still haven't answered, did you know that the twin paradox has been resolved?

Resolved? In what sense?