Merged Libyan civil war ending - politics post-Gaddafi

[MG1962]

Sorry if you feel my Libya thread offends. That was not the intention.

What I had in mind by starting this thread was to call attention to the incredible opportunity presenting itself with the Arab Spring, particularly regarding the Libyan Spring.

The majority currently love NATO. They are also currently in a mess. A happy mess as they have sent Ghaddafi fleeing. But still in a mess.

My point was simply that Western countries need to move their asses to help get Libya back on foot. Now.

We just have to be careful the Lybian people see themselves as determining their own destiny. Otherwise opposition groups can use anti western feeling down the line to destablize the country for their own agenda

 

[DanishDynamite]

We just have to be careful the Lybian people see themselves as determining their own destiny. Otherwise opposition groups can use anti western feeling down the line to destablize the country for their own agenda

Indeed.

 

[bikerdruid]

Third Arab country now cleasned of dictatorship. We need to support their morphing into a democracy. And we need to do so now!

It costs very little now, and if we don't, it will cost a whole lot latter.

it ain't over yet.
nato has yet to install a puppet.
don't expect 'democracy' anytime soon.

 

[mortimer]

it ain't over yet.
nato has yet to install a puppet.
don't expect 'democracy' anytime soon.

Do you have any evidence that NATO plans to install a puppet government? How exactly are they going to do that with no boots on the ground?

 

[Virus]

Bikerdruid doesn't do evidence mortimer, he does left-wing soapbox sloganeering.

 

[Pardalis]

it ain't over yet.
nato has yet to install a puppet.
don't expect 'democracy' anytime soon.

You prefer the socialist dictator to come back in power?

 

[bikerdruid]

You prefer the socialist dictator to come back in power?

how could you be so far from the mark?
did my statement give any indication that this is my desire?

 

[trustbutverify]

Do you have any evidence that NATO plans to install a puppet government? How exactly are they going to do that with no boots on the ground?

T-shirt technology.

 

[trustbutverify]

Bikerdruid doesn't do evidence mortimer, he does left-wing soapbox sloganeering.

I think I can help out here, being that I speak fluent Gallowayan:

Rebellions and uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen, Morocco and Oman are authentic, heroic movements of the glorious ME masses against the satanic west-specifically the US and the Zionist Entity.

Rebellions and uprisings in Iran, Libya and Syria are false flag western operations conducted by zionist agents to hypnotize small groups of vulnerable citizens, with the aid of drug spiked instant coffee. To steal their oil and replace their demonized socialist defiant independent leaders with puppet Zionists.

I hope that clears things up.

 

[theprestige]

That document is one of the silliest things ever written for a Bedouin society. It is guaranteed that it is not written by a Bedouin.

Why on earth would you think that Libya is a "Bedouin society"? Have you not noticed that Libya has several cities, along with a substantially urbanized population?

Unless Bedouins have taken to living in cities, a document written by a Bedouin would probably be the silliest thing Libya could ask for at the moment.

 

[Virus]

how could you be so far from the mark?
did my statement give any indication that this is my desire?

Without NATO intervention Gaddafi would have won.

You opposed the NATO intervention.

Therefore you preferred Gaddafi.

 

[trustbutverify]

Without NATO intervention Gaddafi would have won.

You opposed the NATO intervention.

Therefore you preferred Gaddafi.

Before winning, he would have slaughtered the population of Benghazi as an example of what happens to traitors.

But hey, these things happen.

 

[McHrozni]

Libya is a rich country. At the moment the country's foreign assets are frozen, and the western powers are making some quite high-handed demands of the new government in exchange for unfreezing these assets.

Linky?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

about a million people being made to create a show as if they were still showing their full support for the government?

Fixed that for you. Relevance?

McHrozni

I never responded to that silly remark.

Do mind, there's an allegation from within Libya to that effect. But I'm not impressed. Something obviously had to answer that show of support with another just-believable-enough-for-most accusation that again, as with everything, this July 1 solidarity protest to spite the world was nothing but another manifestation of Gaddafi's sheer terror machine.

We just have to be careful the Lybian people see themselves as determining their own destiny. Otherwise opposition groups can use anti western feeling down the line to destablize the country for their own agenda

That's a good point, but I felt like zooming in on the bolded. Perception is what matters as far as anger goes, but personally, I'd prefer to give that impression by letting them set their own destiny. And by that I mean all of them, freely, even to the extent of votimg Muammar back in if that's what they wanted. It was supposed to be about giving them a choice, after all, not an artificially narrowed choice.

But one whole government/camp/philosophy has been wadded together perhaps inseparably, demonized and all but criminalized. And on the other hand, the NTC and their "freedom" centered ideas (like Sharia law, if temporary) has already been recognized by the whole world basically as the government.

And who are they? We didn't even know half their names 'til a couple weeks ago. And I admit I'm still pretty hazy on the general field. But a few things pop out about at least three:

Mustafa Gheriani, as of April 4 "a businessman and rebel spokesman":

Gheriani tried to assure me that the new state the rebels envision would be led not by confused mobs or religious extremists but by “Western-educated intellectuals,” like him.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/04/04/110404taco_talk_anderson

Mahmoud Jibril:

2. (C) The Ambassador discussed Libya's human development strategy in a May 6 courtesy call on Mahmoud Jibril, Chair of the National Economic Development Board (NEDB), an organization that Jibril likened to a "think tank" of multi-disciplinary experts. Before the March 2009 cabinet shuffle, Jibril was simultaneously in charge of the NEDB and the National Planning Council, but now he directs only the NEDB. He reports directly to the prime minister. A U.S.-educated PhD in strategic planning, Jibril touched on familiar themes, such as Libya's need to diversify its economy away from oil (reftel), but he also fleshed out how Libya is tracking 11,000 development projects.

3. (C) According to Jibril, there are 11,000 development projects in Libya spanning several sectors, with the bulk of projects focusing on infrastructure. The NEDB's role in these projects is to "pave the way" for private sector development, and to create a strategic partnership between private companies and the government. There is a still a "gap of distrust" dividing the two. As to whether Libya has a Master Plan that includes all the 11,000 projects, Jibril admitted that in the past two years, Libya had started executing projects without such a plan. However, the NEDB has been working with experts from Ernst and Young, the Oxford Group, and lately with five consultants from UNDP to advise the prime minister on the best sequencing and pacing of the projects in order to decrease poverty and unemployment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wik...TANK-OUTLINES-HUMAN-DEVELOPMENT-STRATEGY.html

Dr. Ali Tarhouni

“Most participants argued for privatization and a strong private sector economy.” That is a statement culled from a report of a panel discussion entitled “Post-Qaddafi Libya: The Prospect and The Promise,” organized by Washington’s Center for Strategic and International Studies in 1994. Dr Ali Tarhouni stated at the conference, “with privatization, entrepreneurs will reach out and get involved in regional cooperation by searching for markets.”
[...]
Dr. Ali Tarhouni has the credentials to be the globalists’ elder statesman for post-Qaddafi Libya. He was educated in economics at Michigan State University, and has been on the faculty of Graduate School of Business at University of Washington.[11] Like others of the “world color revolution” he seems to have been picked out long ago, in this instance since at least the 1990s, and to have distinguished himself at the 1994 “post-Qaddafi” conference for his enthusiasm for not only a privatized economy but for an Arab regional free market.

Tarhouni has served as the Political Coordinator of the National Conference of the Libyan Opposition (NCL) in Seattle, Washington. The NCLO is a coalition of seven groups founded in London in 2005,[12] and centers on the [CIA-created] National Front for the Salvation of Libya whose Executive Secretary Abdul Majid Buik was present at the 1994 conference with Tarhouni.

Ladmo, is this stuff Bedouin enough?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Before winning, he would have slaughtered the population of Benghazi as an example of what happens to traitors.

But hey, these things happen.

There's no evidence that the government was prepared to slaughter anyone other than those who refused to surrender. It is in the realm of possibility, however.

Thank you for using more than one sentence.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

There's no evidence that the government was prepared to slaughter anyone other than those who refused to surrender. It is in the realm of possibility, however.

"the integrity of China was more important than [the people] in Tiananmen Square" - Gaddafi, 22nd February 2011.

 

[McHrozni]

Do mind, there's an allegation from within Libya to that effect. But I'm not impressed. Something obviously had to answer that show of support with another just-believable-enough-for-most accusation that again, as with everything, this July 1 solidarity protest to spite the world was nothing but another manifestation of Gaddafi's sheer terror machine.

I seriously doubt anything would convince you to come to the rational conclusion. Try to think for a change though, and explain how the rebels were able to take Tripoli with such ease, if the people overwhelmingly supported Quackdaffi, as you claim?

McHrozni

 

[Caustic Logic]

I seriously doubt anything would convince you to come to the rational conclusion. Try to think for a change though, and explain how the rebels were able to take Tripoli with such ease, if the people overwhelmingly supported Quackdaffi, as you claim?

McHrozni

Because, put simply, it wasn't the people keeping them out. It was the military, which NATO had been bombing relentlessly. The rebels got into every city around Tripoli first in that way, and then stormed in en masse after more NATO "softening" of the forces there. You ever had a bomb drop on you? It changes your mind from supporter to neutral pretty quick, and these were the people with the guns need to defend the city.

An invasyion doesn't require the people in the city inviting or supporting it, just being unable themselves to stop it.

@UW: That's a brilliant play. Take the Obama trick of using semantics and imagination to create a genocidal menace, then swiftly stop that menace. You've gone years back and halfway around the world and found a more poetic, even less-direct way of doing the same.

Don't bet your money that if you started an armed uprising in your country, whatever it is, that their liberal butts would just say "okay, we surrender. Don't want to be seen crushing the will of the people." No, they'd come and stomp it out, and see, first hand, if you've got the mass appeal (or outside air support) necessary to parry their thrust. National survival comes first for national forces, and if that's not an issue, they might pursue optional interests, like regime change overseas.

So ... politics post-Gaddafi. Anyone see the continuance of the Arab Socialist Jmahiriya system, or are we going to see a bold experiment in free-market privatization of a backwards economy?

 

[Skeptic]

"the integrity of China was more important than [the people] in Tiananmen Square" - Gaddafi, 22nd February 2011.

With all fairness, Quadaffi didn't say anything here tons of useful idiots in the west haven't already said repeatedly. Of all of Quadaffi's crimes, this brain fart ranks #1,003,223, more or less.

 

[Rolfe]

Nisi Dominus aedificaverit domum,
in vanum laboraverunt, qui aedificant eam.
Nisi Dominus custodierit civitatem,
frustra vigilat, qui custodit eam.