Merged Libya: People's Revolution / Criminal Imperialism?

[Caustic Logic]

Didn't see one yet, so...

Maybe 4/5 or more of Tripoli really is in rebel hands as they say. But the area around the Rixos hotel is still in government hands, and so is Seif al-Islam. The BBC just heard from him:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14625516

Matthew Price says Saif al-Islam arrived in an armoured vehicle looking buoyed up and confident, and when asked if his father was safe and in Tripoli, he shrugged off the question, saying: "Of course".

He said in fact the rebels had walked into a trap, and had their backbone broken. elsewhere, it's said he "seemed confident and full of adrenalin."

Here's my thought:
A Double?
So, if Seif al-Islam was never captured, what happened with the claim he was arrested? Did the rebels just make it up? The motive is clear, but it seems dangerously short-sighted idea under normal circumstances. All he'd have to do is appear and say "uh, no, you must have me mixed up with someone else."

Perhaps they did. Here's what I imagine happened. They received a friendly tip, just as they rolled in almost, from a very high level defector or an easily taken captive. He told them just where Seif was hiding. They chase off the few wimpy guards, or they just surrender, or gt killed, who knows. The man in the room passes the commander's visual ID, mannerisms and voice check, and cases it "that's him."

Webcam video to Moreno-Ocampo scores a confirmation, from what he knows of these things. The world hoots with triumph because it wants to, lets itself start envisioning the bright new future, oil prices finally fall, etc. Then, sometime before the re-appearance, the captive speaks up.

I need to tell you guys agreat secret about my father. Okay, you listening close? You'll want to know this now. My father - his name is Farooq Iqbal. I'm his son, Ahmed. * I work for Saif Gaddafi, who is about to re-appear and laugh in your face.

You can do whatever you like with me - try and pass me off, show me them and admit you were fooled, kill me for fooling you and pretend you just made the story up, whatever. I'm prepared to die for the revolution, the Jamahiriya, just like the rest of Tripoli and many of those behind you that you think you conquered. But we won't die. You will. I'm not the only tricky booby-trapped thing you've run into in Tripoli. You shouldn't have done that.

* made-up, any similarity, disclaimer, yadda yadda
http://libyancivilwar.blogspot.com/2011/08/so-iif-they-didnt-capture-seif.html

Other theories?

 

[Cuddles]

Muhammad Gaddafi apparently escaped a few hours after being captured, so it's possible that the same is true for Saif. If the rebels can't prove they ever had him, it would be good PR by the Gaddafi's to pretend they never did to make the rebels look incompetent. Not that allowing some of the most important people in the country to escape from custody makes them look particularly competent in the first place.

If not that, I really don't know. Your decoy theory sounds fine for a film, but doesn't seem such a great idea in real life. To start with, this is one of the best known people in the country. That would have to be one hell of a lookalike to fool everyone, and one that didn't mind being pretty much guaranteed to be shot as soon as he was exposed. But announcing that you've captured him when you don't have anyone at all seems equally silly.

 

[Caustic Logic]

He was in custody but then escaped. Hmmm.

It's certainly in the realm of possibility. He could trick the one guard he's left with into bending down so he can elbow him, knock the wind out of him, and knee him in the head unconscious. Then, cuffed to the chair, he could still twist around and grab the key to undo the cuffs, take the rebel's "uniform" (a lack of one is how you know which guys in tanks to NOT bomb), and his AK. By now he's got his own beard, can leave that.

Sunglasses, casual victory signs, shouting "Allahu Akbar!", shooting his gun in the air, he'd blend right in. Kick a negro for effect, and he's not just walking out but getting high-fives. Then hightail it for some government safehouse and go get yourself seen.

I could see this too, in another movie, competing with mine for viewers!

 

[Caustic Logic]

Libya: People's Revolution or Thinly Veiled takeover?

More on the rebel advance into Tripoli:

An intelligence-gathering outlet that has proven accurate in the past has reported today that far from being merely a rebel uprising, the showdown in Tripoli over the last 48 hours is being “spearheaded” by British, French, Jordanian and Qatari Special Operations forces.

Israeli open source intelligence gathering outfit DEBKAfile reports:
“This is the first time Western and Arab ground troops have fought on the same battlefield in any of the Arab revolts of the last nine months and the first time Arab soldiers have taken part in a NATO operation.”

As we reported yesterday, the operation, nicknamed “Mermaid Dawn”, is being directed by US and NATO forces. The rebels have received training and arms from special forces and are being directed by Western intelligence operatives on the ground in Libya.

NATO is now planning a “humanitarian” occupation of Libya with thousands of British and American soldiers, risking the possibility that troops could be sent into yet another quagmire to rival Afghanistan and Iraq.

No, only six million people connected by a few roads along a coastal strip, by and large. We can do this! No problem, mission accomplished. You just can't pass up an opportunity to get rid of Gaddafi, because we all just hate him soooooooooooooooooooooooo much. Really hate. Any cost, we'll do it.

This is from Infowars, but they're citing DEBKA and other sources. Der Spiegel also just reported on German special forces for a fact fighting in Libya now. (2nd party link again)

 

[Arcade22]

Yep. Soon the once independent and freedom loving country of Libya will just be another pawn of the ZOG. All is moving along as planned.

 

[little grey rabbit]

More on the rebel advance into Tripoli:


No, only six million people connected by a few roads along a coastal strip, by and large. We can do this! No problem, mission accomplished. You just can't pass up an opportunity to get rid of Gaddafi, because we all just hate him soooooooooooooooooooooooo much. Really hate. Any cost, we'll do it.

This is from Infowars, but they're citing DEBKA and other sources. Der Spiegel also just reported on German special forces for a fact fighting in Libya now. (2nd party link again)

Sorry, mate. The House always wins, you should know that by now.



PS. Never ever accept anything by Debka, if anything there reported is correct, it is purely accidental.

 

[theprestige]

I'm trying to figure out how NATO openly committing its air power and strategic strike assets to the effort comes across as "thinly veiled".

As for takeover, okay, but takeover by whom? Obviously, NATO Pilot Jean-Pierre was never going to take over Libya, no matter how many bombs he dropped or loyalist forces he killed. The job of takeover was always going to be up to the rebels themselves.

Is there reason to believe that NATO Commando Gustav is any different?

 

[Travis]

Even if it were a takeover by NATO would the people be worse off?

I mean they might be but that is a question worth asking.

 

[timhau]

This is from Infowars, but they're citing DEBKA and other sources. Der Spiegel also just reported on German special forces for a fact fighting in Libya now. (2nd party link again)

Infowars? Hmm... Could you link to a Der Spiegel article stating the deployment of German special forces? Call me simple, but I'd rather hear it from the horse's mouth than a site whose "news item" starts as follows:

Tripoli (mathaba) -- In an all-out final attempt to try to install a capitalist bankers government in Libya, terrorist rebels have entered the capital city after being dropped by sea during massive bombing by NATO clearing the way for them to enter to a blood bath.

The German government has officially sent in its GSG-9 forces in violation of Africa's sovereignty under the guise of protecting German diplomats, however these forces are without any permission and there is no danger to the German diplomats, who are free to leave Libya.

This comes in a report by renowned German media publication "Der Spiegel".

Mathaba analysts are predicting a victory for Muammar Qaddafi, because the NATO objective is to kill the symbolic hero of the Libyan revolution, who brought about one of the highest standards of living in the world, with a socialist and democratic government that is a model alternative to capitalism.

 

[Skeptic]

For "thinly veiled", 7,500 airstrikes or so is rather thick.

Oh wait -- it's the "capitalist bankers" of course. Or the Jews. Or both. Or something.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Max Boot, PNAC, says

The fall of Moammar Kadafi, who has long dominated life in Libya, will create a dicey security situation. NATO and the U.N. will have to send economic aid and, most likely, peacekeeping troops.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-boot-libya-20110824,0,4969337.story

timahu:
Sorry, I presumed the link would be in there, for some reason. It took a little finding, but here:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,781464,00.html

Google translate if nothing else, huh?

 

[Caustic Logic]

For "thinly veiled", 7,500 airstrikes or so is rather thick.

Oh wait -- it's the "capitalist bankers" of course. Or the Jews. Or both. Or something.

The air strikes by the NATO bloc, who've long wanted Gaddafi and his economic system OUT of Libya, to you, thickly veils the NATO bloc's takeover intentions?

I'm confused. I thought it was the armed insurgents and their scorched-earth terror tactics, attached to a body of pro-west privatization-obsessed schemers, posing as "the people of Libya," that constituted the veil?

 

[trustbutverify]

The air strikes by the NATO bloc, who've long wanted Gaddafi and his economic system OUT of Libya, to you, thickly veils the NATO bloc's takeover intentions?

I'm confused. I thought it was the armed insurgents and their scorched-earth terror tactics, attached to a body of pro-west privatization-obsessed schemers, posing as "the people of Libya," that constituted the veil?

9/11 truth, infowars, holohoax, gadadffi worship.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I'm trying to figure out how NATO openly committing its air power and strategic strike assets to the effort comes across as "thinly veiled".

It looks exactly like a Western (+some Arab), coalition, gang-rape of a nation, despite the humanitarian veil. What pokes through is the usual mechanics of such a thing: as you point out, a huge number of bombs dropped, infrastructure destroyed, sanctions and embargoes imposed, stealing their money outright if possible, arming the insurgents, recognizing insurgents as the government, relentless demonization of the enemy, etc.

What's really really thin here is the initial cover of preventing a semntics-based, misread threat of a holocaust in Benghazi, of removing a leader who massacred his own people in the low hundreds for merely surging police stations and army bases to steal their starter weapons. To save the children from snipers, the women and everyone really from the mass-raping African mercenaries. Or maybe we had to stop the relentless bombing of Tripoli by which, al Jazeera broadcast, "within the next few hours, the entire Libyan population can be wiped out if this continues! ... Why is the world silent on these atrocities? Why? This is the question."

One or another of those complete lies, or some combination, surely must make this thing all right, we reasoned.

Oh yeah, sure, maybe no al Qaeda or 9/11 link, maybe no WMDs, maybe etc. but he's a bad guy and we freed his people from the domination of the state run central bank and oil companies that ensured all Libyans were taken care of but locked out foreign corporate control...

Make more sense now?

 

[Puppycow]

I'm trying to figure out how NATO openly committing its air power and strategic strike assets to the effort comes across as "thinly veiled".

As for takeover, okay, but takeover by whom? Obviously, NATO Pilot Jean-Pierre was never going to take over Libya, no matter how many bombs he dropped or loyalist forces he killed. The job of takeover was always going to be up to the rebels themselves.

Is there reason to believe that NATO Commando Gustav is any different?

Indeed it is no secret that NATO is supporting the revolution militarily.

The only question is whether that support is limited to air support or if there are also some "boots on the ground." It wouldn't surprise me if there are NATO military advisers and intelligence operatives on the ground in Libya. Perhaps even some special forces.

 

[Caustic Logic]

9/11 truth, infowars, holohoax, gadadffi worship.

Conflate, confuse, belittle, dismiss. So goes cognitive dissonance.

Any word yet if you've been able to verify a single one of the trusted claims from "protester" rebel hot heads about the horrible abuses we had to save them from?

 

[Skeptic]

The air strikes by the NATO bloc, who've long wanted Gaddafi and his economic system OUT of Libya, to you, thickly veils the NATO bloc's takeover intentions?

You missed my point. The point is that there would be no particular reason for NATO to hide the fact it is aiding the rebels with special forces, when it is already openly aiding them with numerous airstrikes. It might not be publicized for security reasons, but that's another issue.

Suppose what you say is true -- what does it tell us? That NATO is aiding the rebels? Wasn't that rather well-known before?

 

[trustbutverify]

Conflate, confuse, belittle, dismiss. So goes cognitive dissonance.

Any word yet if you've been able to verify a single one of the trusted claims from "protester" rebel hot heads about the horrible abuses we had to save them from?

every one of them.

and the nazi abuses as well.

 

[timhau]

timahu:
Sorry, I presumed the link would be in there, for some reason. It took a little finding, but here:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,781464,00.html

The Germans say they're there to protect German diplomats. Not so, says the source that adds

Mathaba analysts are predicting a victory for Muammar Qaddafi, because the NATO objective is to kill the symbolic hero of the Libyan revolution, who brought about one of the highest standards of living in the world, with a socialist and democratic government that is a model alternative to capitalism.

Which one to believe? Oh, what a dilemma.

 

[Andy_Ross]

BBC News has reported several times that NATO Spec Ops were on the ground doing recon and assisitin the rebels.

What's the big deal?

Where are all these 'NATO' troops that youclaim are going to occupy the country coming from?

GB certainly has none to send and there aren't any on notice to go anywhere.
US is taking a back seat.
Has france indicated it has any intention of sending in the Foreign legion?