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Libya and racism/paranoia

FireGarden

Philosopher
FireGarden
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-mercenaries-20110305,0,5517806.story

Black people are being suspected of being mercenaries with what looks like very little evidence.

The rebel-led provisional government in Benghazi denies mistreating suspected mercenaries, though it acknowledges that it is detaining some for questioning. It says it has given human rights representatives access to detainees.

But rebel fighters and bands of gunmen who looted government weapons depots are reportedly instigating their own detentions and beatings.

[...] Libya also is home to thousands of immigrant laborers as well as black Libyans. In their zeal, human rights officials and witnesses say, rebel fighters in some cases have arbitrarily killed some mercenaries and in others cases failed to distinguish between them and non-combatants.
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FireGarden said:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-mercenaries-20110305,0,5517806.story
Black people are being suspected of being mercenaries with what looks like very little evidence.
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How many irregulars are fighting in Libya on the rebel side? Quite a few, no doubt.

There were news stories a week or so ago (not sure of their veracity) of Gadhaffi shipping in Zimbabwean mercs. I suspect that story got wide circulation in Libya, given the technology of the modern day.

What you call paranoid strikes me as the world seen through the eyes of a comfortable Westerner in a safe country. When you go back to basic tribal behavior, which looks to be part of what is happening in Libya, a default is the mindset of "they" and "we" with continually narrowing definitions of "we" in operation. I'd offer Yugoslavia's break up, Rwanda, and Zimbabwe's efforts at the ethnic cleansing of whites as good examples of that mentality in operation.

It's a shame this happens, but it should not surprise you.

Rumor control and discipline are hard enough to maintain in organized units, where information is well vetted and spread. War brings out fear in people, with somewhat predictable outcomes.

It is also my observation that a civil war brings out the worst in people to a greater extent than other forms. :(

Consider what General Robert E Lee said after the battle of Fredericksburg:

It is well that war is so terrible - otherwise we would grow too fond of it. ​

I suspect that in time, once this rebellion is over, successful or otherwise, any number of people will have some deep regrets over what went down. They are caught in the moment and that moment is a war. Most of them are ill suited, and not trained, on how to handle it.
 
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Lot of racism in that part of the world. Tribes hate each other for having lighter or darker skin. The immigrant workers that do the jobs the Libyans consider beneath them are viewed as peasant scum.
 
Darth Rotor said:
I suspect that in time, once this rebellion is over, successful or otherwise, any number of people will have some deep regrets over what went down. They are caught in the moment and that moment is a war. Most of them are ill suited, and not trained, on how to handle it.
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I agree.
 
It's almost as if violent revolutions against the civil order are somehow uncivilized and disorderly!
 
Shocking! People are upset over foreigners intruding in their nation and seeking to kill them and uphold a murderous dictator.

Shocking!


I note all these other foreigners, the ones concerned about the mis-treatment, didn't do a whole hell of a lot to help out those suffering under Kgquaddafie all these years.


Golly! I'll bet the occasional animal is killed by a stray bullet, too, or, gasp, deliberately for food by hungry soldiers. Let's get up in arms over it! We have our priorities, here in the cozy, comfy West. :mad:
 
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To put it bluntly, if freeing themselves involves beating and killing these mercenaries, so be it. The West, so concerned with a few reported racist words as it is done, had no problem letting worse go on there for decades.
 
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Beerina said:
To put it bluntly, if freeing themselves involves beating and killing these mercenaries, so be it. The West, so concerned with a few reported racist words as it is done, had no problem letting worse go on there for decades.
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I get the impression it's not so much the summary justice meted out to mercenaries, but that civilians have been misidentified as mercenaries and treated the same way, simply because they are black.
 
You get that impression because that's what the OP states. I can't see what's wrong about being concerned that innocent immigrants are being hounded and hurt simply because of their skin colour. This may or may not be happening, but that's the concern stated. Not sure why the sarcastic posts in this thread.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8POHluG86IU

Warning, the last part has blood and dead people. Thankfully, the middle part isn't shown. I can't understand Arabic, but I hear the people doing the holding and killing of these prisoners of protest are the good guy rebels we're trying to help and protect. The victims look like Libyan regime and pan-African mercenary types to me.

ETA: So that's possibly not of diret interest, as these guys might be the real deal. But even without racist overreaching, this isn't cool. And considering this is the treatment (in at least one case), and anyone innocent is subjected to it ... who on earth is fighting to stop it?

Oh, yeah ... but not for long, we hope!
 
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Caustic Logic said:
ETA: So that's possibly not of diret interest, as these guys might be the real deal. But even without racist overreaching, this isn't cool.
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While the main point of my post has been concern regarding people being considered mercenaries with possibly no real evidence, I don't agree with summary executions of prisoners -- even if they are combatants.

I do hope that something can be done to stop it. I find it hard to believe that the only way to stop it is to have Gaddafi back in charge. **

As Darth said, when things calm down there will be plenty of shame to replace the current emotions.



**ETA:
On that point, you might want to read this article:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/...dafi-rule-marked-by-abuses-rights-groups-say/
 
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Kind of hard to say in the case of the Arab-looking peiople being interogated, but that big black guy did not look or sound like a native Arabic speaker and some of the Arab-looking suspects may have been speaking a different dialect of using a slightly different pronunciation and rythm. Red flags to mark possible mercs.

Sorry, but I cannot find it in me to get worked up over the death of a few mercenaries. There are a bunch of them operating under contracxt with the US DoD of whom I would like to see the world liberated.
 
I was listening to an NPR story on this today, I was driving at the time so the numbers may be fuzzy on this.

Back when Qaddafi got annoyed that the Arab league wasn't backing his power plays, he emphasized Libya's African identity and tried to go play kingmaker in Africa. Part of this was opening the borders to all African Muslims and recruiting from those immigrants into a Foreign Legion type deal he used to muck about in other African countries.

The upshot was that 2 million or so Africans came to Libya, whose two major population centers only had about 2.5 million people each. This caused massive social upheaval and economic disruption for the average Libyan, and resulted in resentment and race riots that Qaddafi ended up executing people over.

So now there's a couple of issues that feed into people going after black africans. There's the hate from the whole immigration thing and the fact that the immigrants do tend to be more pro-Qaddafi because he facilitated their move away from worse conditions, even if they aren't actually in the militias.
 
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leftysergeant said:
Kind of hard to say in the case of the Arab-looking peiople being interogated, but that big black guy did not look or sound like a native Arabic speaker and some of the Arab-looking suspects may have been speaking a different dialect of using a slightly different pronunciation and rythm. Red flags to mark possible mercs.

Sorry, but I cannot find it in me to get worked up over the death of a few mercenaries. There are a bunch of them operating under contracxt with the US DoD of whom I would like to see the world liberated.
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Lefty, are you sure they are mercs? If there is substantial evidence, I think most mercs are under no illusions as to the risks of their professions. Some of those guys look sorta Maghrebian to me ... but I see what you are saying about the first and second guys.

But FFS, why do you attempt to bridge this to Bush and Rummy's penchant for hiring mercs? You went significantly off topic in order to grind your ax. How about you keep a bit of focus.

This is a Libya issue. It isn't about the US of A.
 
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Qaddafi's offering ten grand signing bonuses with promises of more to come to anyone willing to pick up a gun and fight for him. Many people from Africa have signed up. Some of the tribes that run drugs in the region are up for it. Some Libyans are up for it. The African mercs assume they can always sign up then cut and run if things go bad for them.

leftysargent said:
There are a bunch of them operating under contracxt with the US DoD of whom I would like to see the world liberated.
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Are you saying the mercs in Libya are on US contracts?
 
Beerina said:
To put it bluntly, if freeing themselves involves beating and killing these mercenaries, so be it. The West, so concerned with a few reported racist words as it is done, had no problem letting worse go on there for decades.
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Whilst Zimbabwean mercenaries are not very high on my love-list, I don't think it's a good idea to beat black exchange students to death.

I would not want be a black civilian stuck in Libya right now.
 
quixotecoyote said:
I was listening to an NPR story on this today, I was driving at the time so the numbers may be fuzzy on this.

Back when Qaddafi got annoyed that the Arab league wasn't backing his power plays, he emphasized Libya's African identity and tried to go play kingmaker in Africa. Part of this was opening the borders to all African Muslims and recruiting from those immigrants into a Foreign Legion type deal he used to muck about in other African countries.

The upshot was that 2 million or so Africans came to Libya, whose two major population centers only had about 2.5 million people each. This caused massive social upheaval and economic disruption for the average Libyan, and resulted in resentment and race riots that Qaddafi ended up executing people over.

So now there's a couple of issues that feed into people going after black africans. There's the hate from the whole immigration thing and the fact that the immigrants do tend to be more pro-Qaddafi because he facilitated their move away from worse conditions, even if they aren't actually in the militias.
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I just learned something that goes along with that. Of course this guy has his own agenda, but still interesting:

Libya, Getting it Right: A Revolutionary Pan-African Perspective
by Gerald A. Perreira / March 4th, 2011
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/03/libya-getting-it-right-a-revolutionary-pan-african-perspective/

Over the past two decades, thousands of Africans from all over the continent were provided with education, work and military training – many of them coming from liberation movements. As a result of Libya’s support for liberation movements throughout Africa and the world, international battalions were formed. These battalions saw themselves as a part of the Libyan revolution, and took it upon themselves to defend the revolution against attacks from within its borders or outside.

These are the Africans who are fighting to defend Qaddafi and the gains of the Libyan revolution to their death if need be. It is not unlike what happened when internationalist battalions came to the aid of the revolutionary forces against Franco’s fascist forces in Spain.
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Libya is a deeply traditional society, plagued with some outmoded and bankrupt ideas that continue to surface to this day. In many ways, Qaddafi has had to struggle against the same reactionary aspects of Arab culture and tradition that the holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was struggling against in 7th century Arabia – Arab supremacy/racism, supremacy of family and tribe, historical feuding tribe against tribe and the marginalisation of women. Benghazi has always been at the heart of counter-revolution in Libya, fostering reactionary Islamic movements such as the Wahhabis and Salafists. It is these people who founded the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group based in Benghazi which allies itself with Al Qaeda and who have, over the years, been responsible for the assassination of leading members of the Libyan revolutionary committees.
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Wait. Is someone saying that, because Libyans are attacking black people because they are most likely foreign agents, the Libyans are racists?
 
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