Liberals sack MP for Palestinian comments

[JamesM]

In what way do you disagree?

I think suicide bombers are a product of indoctrination and fanaticism rather than oppression and poverty. Evidence for this point of view is presented in Krueger and Maleckova's paper 'Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?', NBER Working Paper No w9704. Quoting from the abstract:

we analyze data on support for attacks against Israeli targets from public opinion polls conducted in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. These polls indicate that support for violent attacks does not decrease among those with higher education and higher living standards. The core contribution of the paper is a statistical analysis of the determinants of participation in Hezbollah militant activities in Lebanon. The evidence we have assembled suggests that having a living standard above the poverty line or a secondary school or higher education is positively associated with participation in Hezbollah. We also find that Israeli Jewish settlers who attacked Palestinians in the West Bank in the early 1980s were overwhelmingly from high-paying occupations.

I can appreciate your logic here, but I have to say it's a sad day for British politics if we've reached such a level of simplistic, conformist politics.

I agree with you. But that's politics for you.

 

[Ed]

Again, this just serves to illustrate the prevailing racism that still exists in England, that Palestinians/Arabs are not accorded the same prerogative in defending their own land and people.

.

This would be sort of a forward defense, right? In other words they are not defending against a specific attack, they are anticipating it. Right? So, if you can conjure up a threat you can wage agressive war. Right? Just like the US.

We thank you for your support.

 

[BillyTK]

I think suicide bombers are a product of indoctrination and fanaticism rather than oppression and poverty. Evidence for this point of view is presented in Krueger and Maleckova's paper 'Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?', NBER Working Paper No w9704. Quoting from the abstract:

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely have a read; it's certainly an interesting idea. But I have to note that the passage you've quoted from states "support for violent attacks". I don't know if this is a semantic issue, or an acknowledgement of the functional problems of polling the views of suicide bombers themselves.

 

[BillyTK]

This would be sort of a forward defense, right? In other words they are not defending against a specific attack, they are anticipating it. Right?

So, if you can conjure up a threat you can wage agressive war. Right? Just like the US.

We thank you for your support.

I'm not too sure if I follow your logic here; are you suggesting that the Israeli presence in the occupied territories is a matter of conjecture and speculation equivalent to Iraq's WMD's, or that the IDF poses no threat to Palestinians because it doesn't actually exist?

Btw, what do you think of Dr Tonge's comments?

 

[Ed]

I'm not too sure if I follow your logic here; are you suggesting that the Israeli presence in the occupied territories is a matter of conjecture and speculation equivalent to Iraq's WMD's, or that the IDF poses no threat to Palestinians because it doesn't actually exist?

Btw, what do you think of Dr Tonge's comments?

I was under the impression that Demon was suggesting that suicides were a form of defence.

They are understandable (Tonge, that is) however they smack of the same irrationality that gives us the bombings in the first place and as such make her a bit suspect as a person level headed enough to serve as representitive.

I certainly understand why they do it. I think that they are tools of old farts that somehow or other are far too important to blow themselves up. She (Tonge) sounds deluded when she goes beyond understand to suggesting that she would do it herself. A representitive that sees suicide and murder as a viable political tool, given the circunstances, is nutsie, IMO.

 

[Cain]

I think suicide bombers are a product of indoctrination and fanaticism rather than oppression and poverty. Evidence for this point of view is presented in Krueger and Maleckova's paper 'Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?', NBER Working Paper No w9704. Quoting from the abstract:

The findings of this study, which I believe the authors call "suggestive but not definitive." A professor from the Unviversity of Chicago summarized the paper in an op-ed published in the New York Times.

One of the more obvious problems is that there's a rigorous screening process for suicide bombers. The number of volunteers far surpasses the number a terrorist group can actually send.

The same study found that countries with more freedom (civil liberties and rights) had more willing terrorists. Poverty and oppression go together, but I see no reason why oppression cannot be a more important factor.

The Founding Fathers in America were by no means poor or less oppressed. Students, merchants, and affluent families may feel they play a critical role as leaders in their society. Religious fanaticism and suicide bombings could be twin consequences from years the decades of humiliation and limited opportunities that result from occupation.

 

[Flo]

I certainly understand why they do it. I think that they are tools of old farts that somehow or other are far too important to blow themselves up.

or more likely are excellent psychologists: they eliminate the people most likely to supplant them (people resolute enough to go to the end of their conviction at the point of committing suicide), and they cause a double traumatism to the victims - those who survive -, knowing the "suicide" element adds horror to the murders.

She (Tonge) sounds deluded when she goes beyond understand to suggesting that she would do it herself. A representitive that sees suicide and murder as a viable political tool, given the circunstances, is nutsie, IMO.

Given the kind of emotional language she uses, it sounds like she is simply telling the truth: she somehow realises she could be easily manipulated into doing it herself. This is the one good reason I see for getting rid of such a nutsie.

 

[JamesM]

I have to note that the passage you've quoted from states "support for violent attacks". I don't know if this is a semantic issue, or an acknowledgement of the functional problems of polling the views of suicide bombers themselves.

One of Krueger's students, Claude Berrebi, published a study on the links between poverty and education and members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorist cells, which you may find more relevant. It can be found here (warning: PDF).

Cain: I take your point. I will amend my stance to say that oppression is a factor in creating suicide bombers, but I think indoctrination is far more important.

 

[Cain]

Cain: I take your point. I will amend my stance to say that oppression is a factor in creating suicide bombers, but I think indoctrination is far more important.

I wholly concede that religious fanaticism is intimately linked with suicide bombings. Now what's the underlying cause for the asendency of explicit religious organizations and the relative decline of secular-minded groups? Strategies have changed after years of fruitless negotiation and worsening conditions. Before the Second Intifada it used to be 10 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. The ratio is down to 3:1. The MP's original comments discussed the increasingly desperate situation. Better schooling and a higher socio-economic status are not going to be very worthwhile in the face of limited opportunity and constant humiliation that comes from a foreign occupying power.

 

[renata]

An interesting question. Israeli citizenship is only up for grabs for 'genuine' Jews but I cannot find any information about what happens if you abandon your faith once you are a full citizen. It would certainly be extremely unlikely for any non-Jew to hold high public office in Israel just as it would be extremely unlikely for any non-Muslim to achieve the same status in a predominantly Muslim country.

Just wanted to correct this all too common misconception. There are Arabs and Christians who are full citizens of Israel- with voting rights and everything-about 18% of the citizenry of Israel is not Jewish. There are Arab representatives in the Knesset(8 seats out of 120), an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court and Arabs and Christians in various posts in the government- ambassadors, mayors, and others. Ariel Sharon's first cabinet had a Druze as a minister.

Source-http://www.us-israel.org

 

[BillyTK]

I was under the impression that Demon was suggesting that suicides were a form of defence.

They are understandable (Tonge, that is) however they smack of the same irrationality that gives us the bombings in the first place and as such make her a bit suspect as a person level headed enough to serve as representitive.

I certainly understand why they do it. I think that they are tools of old farts that somehow or other are far too important to blow themselves up. She (Tonge) sounds deluded when she goes beyond understand to suggesting that she would do it herself. A representitive that sees suicide and murder as a viable political tool, given the circunstances, is nutsie, IMO.

This is an interesting interpretation of Dr Tonge's view, and seems to parallel that echoed by the media. I have to say though, that I don't get the impression that she is suggesting that as a white liberal women living in Palestine she'd be a potential suicide bomber, but rather if she was born and raised in Palestine, the experience might lead her to consider such. As such, it's slightly different to suggesting that she advocates suicide bombing, which seems to be the charge laid at her door. Of course, I could be completely wrong on this.

Edited for grammar and idiot typos

 

[Cleopatra]

Just wanted to correct this all too common misconception. There are Arabs and Christians who are full citizens of Israel- with voting rights and everything-about 18% of the citizenry of Israel is not Jewish. There are Arab representatives in the Knesset(8 seats out of 120), an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court and Arabs and Christians in various posts in the government- ambassadors, mayors, and others. Ariel Sharon's first cabinet had a Druze as a minister.

Source-http://www.us-israel.org

Some people pretend that they confuse the issue of citizenship( everybody who is born in Israel by Israeli parents is an Israeli--or if he is born out of Irsael at least by one Israeli parent etc etc ) with another issue the " The Law of Return" that goes back to the 1950 of course since Israel was founded so as the Jewish people all over the world return to their land.

Also the ignorance of some people in this forum is embarassing. ALL the Arabs are not Muslims!!!

 

[Cleopatra]

I think suicide bombers are a product of indoctrination and fanaticism rather than oppression and poverty. Evidence for this point of view is presented in Krueger and Maleckova's paper 'Education, Poverty, Political Violence and Terrorism: Is There a Causal Connection?', NBER Working Paper No w9704.

Furthermore, in summer we discussed in this forum the most recent survey on Suicide Terrorism, performed by Scott Atrand

Genesis and Future of Suicide Terrorism.

He is driven to the same conclusions and he expands on the matter explaining why the American War Against Terror doesn't persuade anybody but the Americans.

In any case, it's a very interesting article. In this site you will find an excellent discussion that followed the publication of the article.

 

[Skeptic]

An interesting question. Israeli citizenship is only up for grabs for 'genuine' Jews but I cannot find any information about what happens if you abandon your faith once you are a full citizen.

Nothing. While jews have a right to automatic citizenship, there isn't any requirement to be observant, let alone remain observant. Also, it is quite possible for a non-jew to become an israeli citizen by immigration; the only difference is that it's not automatic.

 

[Skeptic]

Students, merchants, and affluent families may feel they play a critical role as leaders in their society. Religious fanaticism and suicide bombings could be twin consequences from years the decades of humiliation and limited opportunities that result from occupation.

You got to love Cain...

CAIN: "The cause of suicide bombing is A".

STUDY: "Actually, study shows the cause of suicide bombing is B".

CAIN: "Well... er... but it COULD be that POSSIBLY it was A that caused B over decades, so it's still the 'real cause' of suicide bombing. Not that I have any evidence for that, but never mind that..."

 

[Ziggurat]

I wholly concede that religious fanaticism is intimately linked with suicide bombings. Now what's the underlying cause for the asendency of explicit religious organizations and the relative decline of secular-minded groups? Strategies have changed after years of fruitless negotiation and worsening conditions.

A laughable analysis. Negotiations were not fruitless. The palestinians were offered quite a bit. But Arafat let that fruit rot on the vine, because he'd rather protect his own monopoly on power over the Palestinians than actually improve their lives. And their strategy only changed if you mean that now they're using women suicide bombers, not just men. Resorting to violence is reverting back to a previous, and unsuccess, strategy. The greatest enemy of the Palestinian people is not Sharon, but Arafat and Hamas.

Before the Second Intifada it used to be 10 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. The ratio is down to 3:1.

And yet the ratio for suicide bombing casualties (ie, the number of victims per suicide bomber) has actually dropped. Hmmm... makes you wonder...

The MP's original comments discussed the increasingly desperate situation. Better schooling and a higher socio-economic status are not going to be very worthwhile in the face of limited opportunity and constant humiliation that comes from a foreign occupying power.

Humiliation is indeed part of the problem. But it is a self-inflicted problem. The Isrealis are not to blame for the fact that Palestinians, and many other arabs, place their pride above human decency and even their own lives. The Palestinians could learn a lot from the Japanese in this regard:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD64804

And better schooling and higher socio-economic status are not going to happen at all as long as the Palestinians are held in the stranglehold of a corrupt leadership like Arafat and his cronies. Israel could give them everything they want and they still wouldn't have either prosperity or peace, because their biggest problems are internal, NOT external.

 

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by BillyTK
This is an interesting interpretation of Dr Tonge's view, and seems to parallel that echoed by the media. I have to say though, that I don't get the impression that she is suggesting that as a white liberal women living in Palestine she'd be a potential suicide bomber, but rather if she was born and raised in Palestine, the experience might lead her to consider such. As such, it's slightly different to suggesting that she advocates suicide bombing, which seems to be the charge laid at her door. Of course, I could be completely wrong on this.

I agree with your interpretation of her intentions, but her statement is still objectionable. Suicide bombing is wrong, and there are Palestinians who recognize this. That most do not does not excuse them. There is only one morally acceptable conclusion regarding suicide bombing, and the atractiveness of the immoral conclusion (that it is justified) does not absolve the bombers of their crime. Tonge's statement confuses what should be, what MUST be, moral clarity on this point. How serious a gaffe this was is certainly open for debate, but I do not consider it a point of debate that, being in a leadership position, she should not have made the statement.

 

[Skeptic]

I would like to join you in condemning thisw, unfortunately, I can't seem to find anywhere whhere he said this...can you quote it for me.....

You know, "Fool", in a dictionary of quotations, the old adage "none are so blind as those who would not see" should have your picture next to it.

Here--to repeat my previous post that quoted just this--is what demon wrote:

Bomber Harris under orders from Churchill firestormed Dresden and the USA dropped atom bombs on Japanese cities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians, children & women were annihilated because Brits and Americans were fighting against oppressive regimes.

Again, this just serves to illustrate the prevailing racism that still exists in England, that Palestinians/Arabs are not accorded the same prerogative in defending their own land and people.

OK, "Fool", time for English comprehension 101:

1). Demon is claiming that the British and Americans had a certain "prerogative" when fighting Hitler, and that the Palestinians should have the same "prerogative" when fighting israel.

2). What prerogative? The "same prerogative" that Bomber Harris and Truman had: according to Demon, it is the prerogative for massive bombing that would cause "hundreds of thousands of civilians, women & children" deaths.

3). Putting (1) and (2) together, we get the conclusion that it is a a "prerogative" of the Palestinians to butcher hundreds of thousands of "civilians, women and children", and that resisting this "legitimate right of the Palestinian people" (to use the usual euphemism for "a second holocaust", for a change) is "racist".

Now, was that clear enough, or do you want it repeated with pictures?

 

[American]

Dr Tonge sought to clarify her comments by explaining on Newsnight that if she were an Israeli grandmother she would act like an Israeli grandmother, and if she'd been a French grandmother during the middle ages she would probably have done a lot of knitting and attended beheadings of aristos.

The Wizard: "The way I look at it, when a man does a job, a man becomes that job."

Travis Bickle: "You know, that's probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard."

The Wizard: "Hey, whaddya expect? I'm a taxi driver!"





Your place, then, is all that a liberal knows. And there you should stay; someone else will make things change. Someone like Senator Palantine, err.... Kerry.

 

[The Fool]

I would like to join you in condemning thisw, unfortunately, I can't seem to find anywhere whhere he said this...can you quote it for me.....

You know, "Fool", in a dictionary of quotations, the old adage "none are so blind as those who would not see" should have your picture next to it.

Here--to repeat my previous post that quoted just this--is what demon wrote:



OK, "Fool", time for English comprehension 101:

1). Demon is claiming that the British and Americans had a certain "prerogative" when fighting Hitler, and that the Palestinians should have the same "prerogative" when fighting israel.

2). What prerogative? The "same prerogative" that Bomber Harris and Truman had: according to Demon, it is the prerogative for massive bombing that would cause "hundreds of thousands of civilians, women & children" deaths.

3). Putting (1) and (2) together, we get the conclusion that it is a a "prerogative" of the Palestinians to butcher hundreds of thousands of "civilians, women and children", and that resisting this "legitimate right of the Palestinian people" (to use the usual euphemism for "a second holocaust", for a change) is "racist".

Now, was that clear enough, or do you want it repeated with pictures?

pictures would be nice.....

so, as I suspected the "wants hundreds of thousands of Jews dead" is one of your "feelings".

His statement, no matter how much you wish it did, make no reference to the scale of the actions of the palestinians. Its just another of you 1+1=3 efforts... he compares the two events in tems of the public support, not the size and scale of the events. He makes no statement of support for either event....Allied bombing or palestinian bombings. he point he launched clean over your head refered to peoples double standards......Nothing to do with wishing anyone dead.....you can go back to sleep now.

And congratulations too...since your spanking you have toned down the racist rants, good lad. Keep up the good work.