LHC, Micro Black Holes & The Dominium Model

[zosima]

So the ill-informed opposition to the LHC and particle accelerators in general due to the belief that they could initiate some catastrophic doomsday scenario is not new news. But it has gained some momentum as of late due to a lawsuit recently filed that is trying to block the LHC.

Some of the principal characters in this drama are backing a model called the dominium model to backup their claims that micro black holes are a credible threat. So I figure there is no better place to address their claims that JREF.

If you can't tell from the tone of my post, I'm skeptical...but I'd be very happy to hear from both sides.

I don't have enough posts to post urls, so I'll just have to tell ya'll google search terms(If someone with more posts wants to post urls, I'd appreciate it)

Google this for the lawsuit(#1 result)
cosmic log doomsday lawsuit

Google this for the opposition site(#1 result)
lhcdefense

Google "dominium model" or "Hasanuddins" for info on the dominium model
I wish I could find more on said model...but not surprisingly it hasn't been submitted for peer review.

Google to find a hilarious movie on the topic(#1 result):
france builds doomsday machine

Finally, I should note that the apparent ring leader of this effort, Wagner, is actually a physicist. Which makes the argument even more interesting.

 

[zosima]

A quick update.
Hasanuddin posted a link to a pdf describing the dominium theory in the comments on the sciam forum. I'm reading right now and am very suspicious, but I honestly don't have the technical expertise to evaluate his theory. I wish I could link it directly, but hopefully someone can find their way there.

 

[Wangler]

Worst woo ever!

Here is a link to the pdf:

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/u56srb

I warn you all: it is absolute and complete drivel.

 

[Evilgiraffe]

91 pages!

and thats the "abridged version".

 

[Dancing David]

So the ill-informed opposition to the LHC and particle accelerators in general due to the belief that they could initiate some catastrophic doomsday scenario is not new news. But it has gained some momentum as of late due to a lawsuit recently filed that is trying to block the LHC.

Some of the principal characters in this drama are backing a model called the dominium model to backup their claims that micro black holes are a credible threat. So I figure there is no better place to address their claims that JREF.

If you can't tell from the tone of my post, I'm skeptical...but I'd be very happy to hear from both sides.

I don't have enough posts to post urls, so I'll just have to tell ya'll google search terms(If someone with more posts wants to post urls, I'd appreciate it)

Google this for the lawsuit(#1 result)
cosmic log doomsday lawsuit

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cosmic+log+doomsday+lawsuit&btnG=Search

Google this for the opposition site(#1 result)
lhcdefense

http://www.lhcdefense.org/

Google "dominium model" or "Hasanuddins" for info on the dominium model
I wish I could find more on said model...but not surprisingly it hasn't been submitted for peer review.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dominium+model&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Hasanuddins&btnG=Search

Google to find a hilarious movie on the topic(#1 result):
france builds doomsday machine

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=france+builds+doomsday+machine&btnG=Search

Finally, I should note that the apparent ring leader of this effort, Wagner, is actually a physicist. Which makes the argument even more interesting.

 

[Dancing David]

from the MSN article

Runaway black holes: Some physicists say the LHC could create microscopic black holes that would hang around for just a tiny fraction of a second and then decay. Sancho and Wagner worry that millions of black holes might somehow persist and coalesce into a compact gravitational mass that would draw in other matter and grow bigger. That's pure science fiction, said Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York. "These black holes don't live very long, and they have microscopic energy, and so they are harmless," he told me.


Strangelets: Smashing protons together at high enough energies could create new combinations of quarks, the particles that protons are made of. Sancho and Wagner worry that a nasty combination known as a stable, negatively charged strangelet could theoretically turn everything it touches into strangelets as well. Kaku compared this to the ancient myth of the Midas touch. "We see no evidence of this bizarre theory," he said. "Once in a while, we trot it out to scare the pants off people. But it's not serious."


Magnetic monopoles: One theory suggests that high-energy particle collisions might give rise to massive particles that have only one magnetic pole - only north, or only south, but not the north-south magnetism that dominates nature. Sancho and Wagner worry that such particles could be created in the LHC and start a runaway reaction that converts atoms into other forms of matter. But physicists have seen no evidence of such reactions, which should have occurred already as the result of more energetic cosmic-ray collisions in Earth's upper atmosphere.

 

[INRM]

I'd say it would be better to look everything over just to be on the safe side.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

It has been looked over
We are on the safe side..

 

[INRM]

Editing mistake

 

[INRM]

How are they certain that they won't produce a stable black-hole?

How are they certain that the micro black-holes that are produce couldn't aggregate together under some conditions however rare into a larger and stable black-hole?

I also heard something about concern regarding the LHC in terms of the collisions causing, due to conservation of mass or something, a very slow moving black-hole (which I'd assume would have to be a certain size to be stable but unsure) which would be a very serious problem. How have they ruled out the risk of this happening?

 

[sol invictus]

How are they certain that they won't produce a stable black-hole?

Mein gott, you're right! They can't be certain!!

Come to think of it, how can we be certain your a**hole isn't a black hole that's going to eat up the earth? We'd better strap you to a rocket and launch you into space as quickly as possible!!

Achtung! Schnell!! Schnell!!!

 

[MattusMaximus]

How are they certain that they won't produce a stable black-hole?

How can you be certain that you won't get into a fatal car crash the next time you go for a drive?

How are they certain that the micro black-holes that are produce couldn't aggregate together under some conditions however rare into a larger and stable black-hole?

I also heard something about concern regarding the LHC in terms of the collisions causing, due to conservation of mass or something, a very slow moving black-hole (which I'd assume would have to be a certain size to be stable but unsure) which would be a very serious problem. How have they ruled out the risk of this happening?

Wow, what a well-reasoned argument. Here's another one...

According to the Second "Law" of Thermodynamics, it is statistically possible (though enormously improbable) that all of the air in the room in which I'm sitting could spontaneously move into one corner of the room, causing me to suffocate.

Thus, according to INRM's logic, because the probability of such an event is not exactly zero (just so damn small so as to practically be zero), then we need to all stop breathing.

Shall I make another example out of the highly improbable but not impossible chance that INRM could "diffract" the next time they walk through a doorway? Is the solution then to stop walking through doors?

Woobity-woo...

 

[MattusMaximus]

Come to think of it, how can we be certain your a**hole isn't a black hole that's going to eat up the earth? We'd better strap you to a rocket and launch you into space as quickly as possible!!

Sol, you're right!!! We need to take folks like INRM and send them off planet somewhere, because they are endangering the rest of us. After all, their brains appear to be the densest objects in the universe and, as such, will spontaneously generate micro-black holes to the detriment of all!

 

[zosima]

Hey guys, lets not be too harsh.

They can't be sure, but it is just very improbable.

Generally when a scientist says "highly improbable", they don't mean highly improbable, like the "I'm not very likely to win the lottery" improbable.

They mean improbable like if the universe were to happen 1000 times(assuming that the universe has a lifespan of, say, 100 billion years), and we were to run the LHC the whole time, this event could never occur in any of those universes.

Remember these are the scientists who made the theories that predicted that these events have non-zero probabilities. So when they say that they've done the math and they predict 1e-14 events/year, we should trust their claims that we don't need to worry about it.

Note: I made these numbers up, they are demonstrative, and incidentally very conservative, if I remember correctly the probability I read was much smaller.

 

[jj]

Look.

Cosmic rays with more energy than the collider hit the earth every day.

We are still here.

So is the rest of the matter universe.

 

[FreakBoy]

Come to think of it, how can we be certain your a**hole isn't a black hole that's going to eat up the earth?

You owe me a new keyboard.

 

[Dancing David]

How are they certain that they won't produce a stable black-hole?

Mostly becuase such high energy events occur on a regular if rare basis, due to to cosmic rays and the like.

 

[sol invictus]

You owe me a new keyboard.

 

[INRM]

Dancing David...

Good point. However, doesn't the LHC produce high energy levels (while not as powerful as some energy rays that strike earth) far more continuously

 

[INRM]

Dancing David...

The LHC doesn't produce as much energy as some cosmic-ray bursts to hit the Earth?

Regardless wouldn't the LHC produce these energy-levels which not as high, a lot longer though than a cosmic-ray burst? Also are energy-levels the only issue? (or does the type of collisions involved, matter as well -- if it sounds silly I'm sorry)

Also how far down can a cosmic-ray burst penetrate the earth's surface? As far down as the LHC's particle accelerators? Would this add energy to the accelerators reactions?