• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Let's Talk About Race

Dancing David said:


I have yet to see any proof that IQ tests are significant to anything other than IQ tests. They don't predict who will do well in school, they have zero social skills and are basicaly irrelevant to anything.
This hicks test you make reference to: did they test more than ten thousand people, when were the tests done and by whom?

Scientific testing has many inate biasis and should be takedn very carefully in the social sciences.

Peace
dancing David

Uhm, I just cited the correlations above-- for example, they predict 25% of the variance in grades and slightly more than that in years education.

Why would one need to test 10,000 people? Statistical power's only a problem when you get null results.

The data in the hick task are pretty objective-- reaction time.

Regarding your next post, what if we compared only lower class single parent white and black kids yet still found the difference?
 
DanishDynamite said:
Why do people insist that races are just social/cultural constructs? According to Merriam-Webster race is the same as breed or sub-species. Is the differentiation between a Saint Bernard and a Poodle a cultural construct?

There ARE (small) genetic differences between humans. If you wish to divide humans to sub-species according to this, I suppose it is theoretically possible (if meaningless) and, to that respect, "objective".

But when people talk of "race", they mean SKIN COLOR. And the relation between skin color and genetic difference is extremely superficial. About 4/5th of the genetic difference in humans is between different groups of "blacks" from Africa, while everybody else--including many blacks and all orientals and whites--shares about 1/5th of the difference.

To use your dog analogy, if dogs were divided according to "races" on the same principle humans tend to divide themselves, it would be like putting a black dachshound, St. Bernard, Rottweiler, and labrador together in one "black" dog race, a yellow labrador into the "oriental" dog race, and a white labrador into the "white" dog race.

In this sense, "race" IS a social construct, since it doesn't correlate with anything in genetics or breeding except for superficial skin color.
 
I have yet to see you say how many people were in the Hicks test and wether or not they had a 'statistically significant' proportion of people to base these conclusions on. I am not asking you to cite the source I want to know how many people were in the trial and when it was preformed.
In the social sciences there is a lot of garbage, someone does a study on ten people and then reports it, then it gets dragged into a bunch of pop psychology and constantly repeated over and over. Then they never have the results replicated.

So how large was the sample size, how did they choose them, when was the test done, and was it replicated?

When you say 'lower class' how is it defined and say how it reflects the three variables I mentioned, parental involvement, sleep and caring for younger siblings? Do the studies in the meta analysis have any sort of protocol for deciding which studies they compare? Is it a straight correlation or it is forced through a 'chi table'? Did you know that generally in statistics anything less than a 63% correlation is concidered to be insignificant.

I am not disagreeing with your conclusions, I just want to make sure of the basis of the conclusion.

Peace
dancing david
 
If that is true, how come masais are taller than pygmes? Where did all the other differences come from?

This is part of that "most of africa" stuff. Much more varied genetic stock.
Aren't these differences proving just what you are claiming didn't happen -

Absolutely not. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I said "this type" of selective breeding didn't happen, referring to brain power. I am absolutely sure that the intelligence of a mate was unimportant to our ancestors. What would need to happen to make a given people smarter than the others, would be that people would have to be specifically looking for high intelligence as a trait for mating, and those people would have to mate more.

there was a selective breeding going on,

And it had nothing to do with brains.

based on things like the chances of survival or at least the chances of being able to reproduce if you were born with certain qualities. So, stronger people, or smarter people, or those with some other preferable ability, survived and had kids.

The thing about humans is that we're all smart enough to survive (except those with severe mental disabilities, of course), so I don't see how any primitive human could even BEGIN to distinguish between a smart person and a stupid person. That is why I am absolutely sure this type of selection never happened. Think very carefully about how/why you consider a person intelligent. It usually has to do with the way they speak, the things they are interested in, the way they have performed scholastically, etc. Language is much more sophisticated now than it was a long time ago, there were no schools tens of thousands of years ago, and true brilliance had no way to be applied. Caveman Einstein would have been just like every other caveman, because the basics of hunting were easily within the grasp of everyone.

If breeding made differences between groups of people, as in taller/smaller, fairer/darker, stronger/weaker - why is it so f****** politically uncorrect to suggest that there might be differences also in that organ called a brain?

Because the physical differences between the "races" came about for very specific reasons. In Africa, for instance, many of the animals humans would have hunted would run fairly fast. Long legs are a plus, same with running away. They are also built to be more lanky, and have more exposed skin, with less hair, so they disappate heat better. In Europe, people became white, and grew hair, and became more stalky in order to converse heat against the harsh winters.

All these differences came about for specific reasons. Intelligence, however, didn't come into play (in any major way) until perhaps 10,000 years ago. And, before a few centuries ago, people would have probably considered Africans, with their great kingdoms, to be the most intelligent people on earth.



Also, again referring to the tall comment:

Some of the most athletic people in the world would be olympic Gymnists. Gymnastics requires strength, control, balance.. everything "athletic" about the human body.

Gymnists are how tall again? :)
 
Why would the concept of race be useful? Can you come up with characteristics that indicate 'race' on this scale. I am sorry to the people who want to believe that they are superior. Race is a cultural belief, there are no human races. We are all one gene pool, that has intermingled wether you like it or not!
By the law of continuity(except in some states) I maintain that most people bred with people who were outside of thier local area, also called exogeny.
Twon A marries Town B , Town B marries both Town A and Town C, Town D marries Town D, therefore over time Town A. and Town D are likely to show some interbreeding.

Rant Rant Rant
The Africans invented agriculture, the Indians invented math and sewage systems and the human stock came to Africa by way of Asia before the radiation of homo spaiens 60,000 yers ago.!

Peace
dancing david
 
Fade said:


Absolutely not. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I said "this type" of selective breeding didn't happen, referring to brain power. I am absolutely sure that the intelligence of a mate was unimportant to our ancestors.

In your case I'd agree. :rolleyes:

Other than "you", I strongly suspect you can't back up that assertion.
 
Fade:

The thing about humans is that we're all smart enough to survive (except those with severe mental disabilities, of course), so I don't see how any primitive human could even BEGIN to distinguish between a smart person and a stupid person. That is why I am absolutely sure this type of selection never happened. Think very carefully about how/why you consider a person intelligent. It usually has to do with the way they speak, the things they are interested in, the way they have performed scholastically, etc. Language is much more sophisticated now than it was a long time ago, there were no schools tens of thousands of years ago, and true brilliance had no way to be applied. Caveman Einstein would have been just like every other caveman, because the basics of hunting were easily within the grasp of everyone.
Hey, just because Gort the Caveman did not discourse on Susan Sontag doesn't mean there was no basis upon which a prospective mate could judge his intelligence. Depends on how you define intelligence. I define it as something along the lines of mental ability leading to success in the prevailing environment. Our ancestors used better brain power to be better hunters, root diggers, shelter builders, fruit pickers and whatever. Some better than others. Don't you think mate selection along these lines would have occurred?
 
Skeptic:
There ARE (small) genetic differences between humans. If you wish to divide humans to sub-species according to this, I suppose it is theoretically possible (if meaningless) and, to that respect, "objective".
It is possible, at least in some areas of the world. According to the Oxford Paperback Reference Concise Science Dictionary 1996, the definition of subspecies is: "A group of individuals within a species that breed more freely among themselves than with other member of the species and resemble each other in more characteristics. Reproductive isolation of a subspecies may become so extreme that a new species is formed (see speciation)." I'm not a taxonomist, but why wouldn't the Masai, the Pygmys, and the Aboriginals, to name three examples, qualify as races?
But when people talk of "race", they mean SKIN COLOR. And the relation between skin color and genetic difference is extremely superficial. About 4/5th of the genetic difference in humans is between different groups of "blacks" from Africa, while everybody else--including many blacks and all orientals and whites--shares about 1/5th of the difference.
Well, as I said before, race means breed or subspecies. I agree that dividing humans into subspecies based exclusively on skin color isn't very useful.
To use your dog analogy, if dogs were divided according to "races" on the same principle humans tend to divide themselves, it would be like putting a black dachshound, St. Bernard, Rottweiler, and labrador together in one "black" dog race, a yellow labrador into the "oriental" dog race, and a white labrador into the "white" dog race.
Certainly a fairly useless categorization.
In this sense, "race" IS a social construct, since it doesn't correlate with anything in genetics or breeding except for superficial skin color.
Equating skin color with race isn't useful.
 
Fade:
Absolutely not. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I said "this type" of selective breeding didn't happen, referring to brain power. I am absolutely sure that the intelligence of a mate was unimportant to our ancestors. What would need to happen to make a given people smarter than the others, would be that people would have to be specifically looking for high intelligence as a trait for mating, and those people would have to mate more.
How in the world can you be sure that intelligence wasn't a selected trait? The one trait where humans excel wasn't a survival trait?
The thing about humans is that we're all smart enough to survive (except those with severe mental disabilities, of course), so I don't see how any primitive human could even BEGIN to distinguish between a smart person and a stupid person. That is why I am absolutely sure this type of selection never happened. Think very carefully about how/why you consider a person intelligent. It usually has to do with the way they speak, the things they are interested in, the way they have performed scholastically, etc. Language is much more sophisticated now than it was a long time ago, there were no schools tens of thousands of years ago, and true brilliance had no way to be applied. Caveman Einstein would have been just like every other caveman, because the basics of hunting were easily within the grasp of everyone.
You must be joking. The ability to make tools, the ability to make better tools, the ability to plan, the ability to communicate detailed information, the ability to imagine, etc, etc, aren't signs of intelligence? Of course they are and they are also survival traits.
Because the physical differences between the "races" came about for very specific reasons. In Africa, for instance, many of the animals humans would have hunted would run fairly fast. Long legs are a plus, same with running away. They are also built to be more lanky, and have more exposed skin, with less hair, so they disappate heat better. In Europe, people became white, and grew hair, and became more stalky in order to converse heat against the harsh winters.
Of course the differences came about for specific reasons. So what? BTW, "Africans" don't all have long legs (see Pygmy).
All these differences came about for specific reasons. Intelligence, however, didn't come into play (in any major way) until perhaps 10,000 years ago. And, before a few centuries ago, people would have probably considered Africans, with their great kingdoms, to be the most intelligent people on earth.
Bollocks. Intelligence has been at play since the beginning of human evolution.
 
Dancing David:
Why would the concept of race be useful?
Why is any categorization scheme useful? Its useful because it allows one to ask questions such as "Why did the X race (say, Pygmy, if that was a race) arise?" "Why was it a survival trait to be small, tall, black, white, etc, in that environment". "Why didn't the Y race (say, Masai, if that was a race) invade their territory?". Etc, etc.
I am sorry to the people who want to believe that they are superior.
Me too.
Race is a cultural belief, there are no human races. We are all one gene pool, that has intermingled wether you like it or not!
Certainly we have intermingled. However, until recently, the intermingling has been minimal leading to the races evident today.
 
Fade,

Sorry to nag but I'd appreciate an answer to my earlier question.

If the meaning of your statement was obvious I apologize for being slow.

Lucy.
 
Our ancestors used better brain power to be better hunters, root diggers, shelter builders, fruit pickers and whatever. Some better than others. Don't you think mate selection along these lines would have occurred?

Not at all.

Until the classical periods, I really don't see the higher forms of our intellect coming into play at all. Even the most average (great wording, I know) person would be more than capable of hunting, trapping, building shelter, etc. These things don't take much brain power, all they take is learning. Once you understand it, you can teach it to everyone, so everyone can take advantage of it.

Look at what the average human can do today as far as, say, math goes. I can perform nearly any tasks the ancient Greek or Arabian mathemeticians could, and can even show you for the most part how they arrived at them. Their intellect manifested in the sense of putting things together first, but it granted them not actual benefit, as once the one of them figured it out, it belonged to the entire human race.

To skip back a bit:
Depends on how you define intelligence. I define it as something along the lines of mental ability leading to success in the prevailing environment.

Intelligence is a funny thing. I don't think it's quite possible to give a definition that narrow. There is no question that the more capable people lived longer, but were those more capable people more intelligent by the standards we hold right now? I am firmly of the opinion that we did our evolving 150,000 years ago, and our evolution since then has been largely superficial changes to deal with weather.

How in the world can you be sure that intelligence wasn't a selected trait? The one trait where humans excel wasn't a survival trait?

Because after you get to human level intelligence, you don't need to go further to survive on this earth.

Here's a question that I have never heard an answer too:

How does Joe-Primitive Man know who is intelligent, and who is not? By what standards does he use?

The man who catches the most meat isn't necessarily the man who is most intelligent. What one lacks in intellect, one can make up for in physical strength, ability to work in a group, ability to give commands, ability to take commands, ability to learn, etc, etc. I have a hard time thinking of a situation where a comparison of intellects would ever take place. The thing is, we are more intelligent than we need to be.

You must be joking. The ability to make tools, the ability to make better tools, the ability to plan, the ability to communicate detailed information, the ability to imagine, etc, etc, aren't signs of intelligence? Of course they are and they are also survival traits.

All of these things can be done by a mediocre human intellect.

Again, how being more intelligent than average be of any practical benefit?

Of course the differences came about for specific reasons. So what? BTW, "Africans" don't all have long legs (see Pygmy).

What -reason- would a European or Asian need to be more intelligent than an African?

Also, the pygmy's would fall under the category "exception" and not "rule" It would take too long to be too specific.

Bollocks. Intelligence has been at play since the beginning of human evolution.

Our intelligence likely came about as a means to use our hands. Once we were done evolving, we stopped. I don't believe I have ever seen evidence supporting the idea that we aren't almost exact duplicates of humans living 150,000 years ago. Perhaps in time, we'll need to get smarter to keep up with the ideas that come forth out of our brains, but there are very few concepts we have NOW that the average person can't understand given enough time, much less simple things such as tools and traps and communication.


Also, for the record, it is believed that Females developed better communication skills, and probably developed them first.

LucyR:

It was a very tongue in cheek comment. The people at stormfront seem to think only of actual skin colour when speaking about their own racism.

Hammy wrote:
Other than "you", I strongly suspect you can't back up that assertion.

Find me some reliable evidence stating that a white person is more intelligent then a black person, or whatever racist position you happen to hold. If my position is NOT correct, that evidence will exist, as humans will have bred using intelligence as a factor.

If I am correct, then all people of all "races" will have the same average intelligence level. This seems to be played out, given the ready ability of people from all "races" to hold jobs requiring consistent application of their intellect. Of course, this disregards cultural bias, something I am sure you are a fan of.

Ta.

Edit-

Perhaps I should have stated that I am of the opinion that we contain many different intelligences, such as interpersonal, intrapersonal, artistic, logical, etc. One can be deficient in one, or most, and make up for it with strength in another. A stupid person can still be brilliant in some respect, to wit, an idiot savant. However, that person would still be considered to posess a low intelligence.
 
Fade said:
If I am correct, then all people of all "races" will have the same average intelligence level.
Which leads to the question: Why don't they?

Why do 'asians' consistently score better than 'whites' both in intelligence tests and at university admission tests?

I have far too little time to follow the forum these days, but feel free to check statistics on what I'm claiming. Please let me know if you find I'm wrong (I wish I were). :confused:

bpesta, you seem to have some numbers on this - care to share?
 
Fade said:


Not at all.

Until the classical periods, I really don't see the higher forms of our intellect coming into play at all. Even the most average (great wording, I know) person would be more than capable of hunting, trapping, building shelter, etc. These things don't take much brain power, all they take is learning. Once you understand it, you can teach it to everyone, so everyone can take advantage of it.

Look at what the average human can do today as far as, say, math goes. I can perform nearly any tasks the ancient Greek or Arabian mathemeticians could, and can even show you for the most part how they arrived at them. Their intellect manifested in the sense of putting things together first, but it granted them not actual benefit, as once the one of them figured it out, it belonged to the entire human race.


I think you underestimate the use of intelligence. If it was not useful, it would not have evolved. Certainly our collective body of knowledge, due to writing and computers is immense now compared to stoneage times. Our level of intelligence should be about the same, as you note. As humans, we have not changed much in the past hundred thousand years.

So what was our intelligence used for, if not fine arts and the invention of democracy.

Primitive societies used their brains for their day to day life, just as we do. Only, they used them in their life. So hunting and other pursuits, using just hand weapons, were possible.

The intelligence was necessary due to our slow speed, poor endurance and frailty.

For example, aboriginal trackers, whose skills are now dying out, can follow the tracks of people or animals over areas that we would consider impossible. They could memorise and pass on a vast verbal lore. This lore accurately recalls, for example, when Port Phillip bay in Victoria was dry, which was about 20,000 years ago.

The intelligence to create the flint tool and refine it required, I believe, every bit of intelligence that was required to invent the computer.
 
Which leads to the question: Why don't they?

What evidence states Asians are more intelligent than Whites?

IQ tests measure the ability of a person to take IQ tests. I consistently score 150+, but I am -not- as intelligent as an IQ test would peg me to be. Why? My mother played logic and word puzzles with me when I was a kid. I also never had any sort of text anxiety, and treat IQ tests as a challenge.

Seriously, read the Mismeasure of Man and you'll understand how these tests are fundamentally flawed. They don't establish any sort of objective metric with which to begin measuring! IQ tests rely only one how fast and how accurately the person answers a round of questions.

Here's an example for you:

Take Joe the Caveman from 140,00 years ago. Let's say we can invent technology which sticks the English language into his brain so that he understands what the IQ test questions mean. Other than learning the language, Joe has no other association with our society. His brain isn't used to distinguishing between the different types of shapes we are. His brain isn't used to thinking in terms of what is more like, and less like what. His brain isn't used to the things ours are.

Is Joe less intelligent?

No, he just doesn't know how to take an IQ test.


Now, take the Asian community, which puts heavy emphasis on science, mathematics, and logic. Their minds are trained from the beginning (speaking generally here) to do the exact things IQ tests asked. This is less prevalent in white society.

This is also the last time I will answer this exact question, as you have already asked it, and I have already answered it, without you even attempting to argue it.

Now, if you find fault in my logic, or have a source which has some sort of objective way of establishing intelligence, by all means i'll read it. If Asians are more intelligent then whites, then I am going to go out and breed with some asian women to make a few smart children!


Also, as an aside:

Can anyone define exactly what intelligence is?

I think you'll find that it's a combination of dozens of things, only a few of which are really ever measured :)
 
I think you underestimate the use of intelligence. If it was not useful, it would not have evolved.

Okay, I already answered this. Please go back and read everything I have written.

Certainly our collective body of knowledge, due to writing and computers is immense now compared to stoneage times. Our level of intelligence should be about the same, as you note. As humans, we have not changed much in the past hundred thousand years

Yes, exactly. Although, a lot of people confuse information with intelligence. I 'know' a little more about the universe than Einstein did. I know a LOT more about the universe than Newton did, but these two minds were far, far beyond me.

[...]

The intelligence to create the flint tool and refine it required, I believe, every bit of intelligence that was required to invent the computer.

Yes. I have already stated this, and it has not a single thing to do with my point. Our language allows us to have a flowing culture. One tribe talks to another. Nobody (well, not many people) live in a vacuum. Once one person figures something out, just about everyone knows how to do it. So the selective breeding on basis of intelligence would only "count" for that ONE PERSON that invented it.

I feel I need to restate this:

We didn't selectively breed to become more intelligent in the time we have been what we know as Homo Sapien. After we evolved to this point, our changes have been largely superficial, usually changes to better suit our environments. Because we lack this sort of selective breeding, I am of the opinion that no one "race" is more intelligent than any other, in general. Furthermore, I think the concept of race as anything other than a physical description is largely archaic and pointless, and it is impossible to predict how intelligent or athletic a person will be solely based upon that persons race.
 
Fade,

Do you believe someone who scores 150 on an IQ test is more intelligent than one who scores 100? Or rather, if one scores higher, is one more intelligent? If not, we have a definition problem. ;)
 
Fade said:

Can anyone define exactly what intelligence is?

I think you'll find that it's a combination of dozens of things, only a few of which are really ever measured :)

This is one of the things that bugs me when people talk about intelligence as a specific trait, but the definition always depends on reference to other abilities, or to some generalised capacity.

Round my neck of the woods there's a joke that IQ testing is a test of how middle class you are, because that's another amorphous correlate of economic success.

Anyway, for anyone who's at a particularly loose end, here's a pretty thorough collection of arguments for and against intelligence testing.
 
Bjorn said:
Fade,

Do you believe someone who scores 150 on an IQ test is more intelligent than one who scores 100? Or rather, if one scores higher, is one more intelligent? If not, we have a definition problem. ;)

IQ tests are Mensa vanity mirrors. They mean nothing. They measure nothing.

Except, of course, your ability to take IQ tests.

Edit
Anyway, for anyone who's at a particularly loose end, here's a pretty thorough collection of arguments for and against intelligence testing.

Bookmarked. Looks like some good reading material!
 

Back
Top Bottom