Let's talk about Lynndie England

[Garrette]

Originally posted by BPSCG:

For those who complain that he higher-ups aren't being punished: Is it your contention that those who knew what was going on but didn't do anything about it should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it? Is it your contention that those who did not know what was going on, but should have, should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it?

I'm not sure anyone has insisted on "more harshly," but that outcome cannot be discarded.

So, yes, it is conceivable (and not only in wild dreams) that a superior who:

a) knew of the abuses but did nothing

or

b) did not know but should, by virtue of his/her position, have reasonably known

could legitimately receive a punishment harsher than that meted out to the people who actually committed the abuses.

It is perhaps unlikely, but not out of the realm of legitimate possibility.

 

[crimresearch]

Viz. Zacarias Massoui - the 20th hijacker. He pled guilty last week, but for a while, there was real doubt that Judge Brinkema here would accept the plea. She went through major hoops to ascertain that he was fully aware of what he was doing, that he was closing the door to any appeals, that once she accepted his plea, it was final, and that the only thing left to do after she accepted his plea would be to determine the penalty, which would in all probability be death. Only when she was satisfied that he understood all of that did she accept his plea.

And then the clown immediately claimed that what he was doing was in no way connected to the September 11 hijacking, but to some other hijack scheme. Sorry, pal, too late.

In short, the criminal justice system bent over backward to make sure even a vicious would-be mass murderer was treated fairly.

Just the way it's supposed to be.

Accepting a plea is not the same as accepting a plea bargain. It seems as though the judge has serious doubts about Mousoui's mental competence to enter a plea of guilty...whether or not the prosecution has offered him anything.

In the case of a plea **bargain** judges routinely ascertain that the plea was freely entered, and that the defendant understands that they can still get the maximum penalty, AND that the facts add up, etc.
There is no bending over backwards, or jumping through hoops...it is SOP for both military and civilian courts.

In either system, you can't plead guilty to the Lindbergh kidnapping to get a reduced sentence for a minor charge.
And you can't plead guilty to a conspiracy, if you are just saying that to get a reduced sentence, while your alleged co-conspirators are saying things that might get you an acquital. As the military judge said, 'How can you have a conspiracy of one?'.


Basically it is a non-story, cooked up with the media's usual breathless concern over the routine.

 

[Mephisto]

Oh, they'll take any number of criminally sadistic insane idiots who delight in war crimes....as long as they're not, you know, gay or anything. That would be disastrous for the cohesiveness of the military, or something.

. . . although "gayness" might be overlooked if the soldier repented in the right religion.

 

[SezMe]

[BFor those who complain that he higher-ups aren't being punished: Is it your contention that those who knew what was going on but didn't do anything about it should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it? Is it your contention that those who did not know what was going on, but should have, should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it? [/B]

Regards the first question, yes, that is precisely my contention. I would offer two rationale's for this stance. The first relates to scope of effect. That is, a single soldier might have abused only a few to a few tens of individuals. However, a higher-up who did nothing to prevent the abuse was directly (yes, directly) responsible for possibly hundreds of cases of abuse through his/her inaction. If you accept this premise, then the greater crime demands greater punishment.

The second reason relates to magnitude of effect. In the military, the grunt at the bottom of the ladder has (officially) a very limited range of choices - he is to obey orders. Higer-ups, it seems to me, have a wider choices and a responsibility of exercising those choices more wisely. One aspect of this responsibility would be to see the bigger picture of the magnitude of damage that would be done to the military, to the war effort, to the mission objectives and even to the soldiers under his command should wrongdoings come to light. That the higher ups did not exercise good judgement greatly magnified the fallout from this prison scandal. As such, they deserve greater punshment.

I am less clear regarding your second question, but I would be inclined to again respond in the affirmative. After all, isn't "dereliction of duty" a major offense in the military...and in civilian life as well. Doesn't the captain of the ship bear responsibility for any and all conduct by those under his command. I believe that is what Reagan said when errors were made on "his watch."

I don't think this is written too well, Beeps, but I hope you get my perspective. Let me turn it around and ask you to respond to your own questions. What do you think?

 

[Roadtoad]

So she is not the sharpest pencil in the box. What I find quite interesting is that intelligence testing, something so common nowadays, originated during the WWI for the purpose of (American) army recruit selection. Are there no such tests applied anymore in the recruitment process? Or is is against some sort of inclusion policy?

The only test is the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. I've seen guys with a General/Technical Score of 60, (which is literally a room-temperature IQ) get jobs with Military Intelligence Units. (Thus, completing the cliche...)

 

[daredelvis]

Viz.
In short, the For those who complain that he higher-ups aren't being punished: Is it your contention that those who knew what was going on but didn't do anything about it should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it? Is it your contention that those who did not know what was going on, but should have, should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it?

Abso(***king)lutely, and I don’t see how anyone can see it any other way. They were IN CHARGE during an ongoing period of misconduct. If they did know something about it and did nothing to stop it they should have the book thrown at them.

This is not a situation where a peer is aware of a wrongdoing (pfc seeing other pfc abusing prisoners). In that instance anyone would agree that the abuser deserves a more severe punishment then the witnessing pfc. But, when command sees something going like they did at Abu Ghraib, and does nothing to stop it, I would argue that could be construed as approval of the abuses. If members of command knew what was going on at Abu Ghraib and they did nothing to stop (or even as some suggested encouraged it) then they should rot. If they were acting under direction from above, it is their duty to reveal where the orders originated.

I find it very hard to believe that mental giants like England and her cohorts did all of this on their own, without someone above being aware of it.

Daredelvis

 

[Bjorn]

I find it very hard to believe that mental giants like England and her cohorts did all of this on their own, without someone above being aware of it.

Daredelvis

Of course someone else than England and the gang members knew.

In releasing an investigative report yesterday about the actions of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, the generals acknowledged that chaos and confusion absorbed Abu Ghraib. Interrogators did not know the rules and thus flagrantly broke them.

Coupled with an independent investigative report issued Tuesday, the findings released yesterday outline dramatic problems at the prison and highlight significant management failures up and down the chain of command that the generals believe ultimately led to and exacerbated serious abuse.

Gen. Paul J. Kern, Lt. Gen. Anthony R. Jones and Maj. Gen. George R. Fay flatly reported that they had found "serious misconduct and a loss of moral values" in the ranks at Abu Ghraib and explained that abuse occurred both in the chaos of the military police-run nightshift and also during official interrogations by military intelligence soldiers.

The generals also describe confusing and contradictory interrogation policies that led some military intelligence personnel to abuse detainees because they thought they were following accepted practices.

..... yesterday's report made it clear that while MPs were involved in abuse, the transgressions were more widespread and generally accepted at the prison than previously acknowledged.

Washington Post, August 26, 2004.

 

[Frank Newgent]

To be done to the tune of Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover by Paul Simon.



"Problem in Abu Ghraib" said Karpinski to an aide
"OK" replied the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade
"The 372nd can abuse
Set conditions for interviews"

There must be fifty ways to free Iraqis
Fifty ways to seize Iraqis

Rumsfeld says: "You know, it's not my habit to let Mossad intrude
I really just want to see Iraqi men all nude
I'd repeat myself but, you know, that George is such a prude"
There must be fifty ways to free Iraqis
Fifty ways to seize Iraqis

Slip on this hood, Su'ud
Take off those pants, Zants
Have a grenade, Fayyad
Just toss it to me
Where's the pin, Shahin
Think you're in World War Two?
When you're painted bright blue, 'Bu
They won't think you're a Jew

We say: "It grieves us so to see them on their knees
And following orders is, well, so bourgeoisie"
American Idol starts at three
Does Iraq have electricity?
There must be fifty ways to free Iraqis
Fifty ways to seize Iraqis

Rumsfeld says: "Command accountability's been outsourced
No Iraqi government the Geneva Conventions to endorse"
The blueprint for this operation a prison in Detroit
There must be fifty ways to free Iraqis
Fifty ways to seize Iraqis

Slip on this hood, Su'ud
Take off those pants, Zants
Have a grenade, Fayyad
Just toss it to me
Where's the pin, Shahin
Think you're in World War Two?
When you're painted bright blue, 'Bu
They won't think you're a Jew

Starts with an ass, class
Ends with a hole, Cole
That could be me, Lee
Such an Inhof-e
How you like Cuba, General Taguba?
Cop a plea, Lynndie
Said Negroponte



[size=1/8]more or less from here[/size]

 

[Art Vandelay]

What about no lo contendre pleas? Can those be thrown out.

For those who complain that he higher-ups aren't being punished: Is it your contention that those who knew what was going on but didn't do anything about it should be punished more harshly than those who actually did it?

There are several issues here:
You seem to be saying that the choices are "no punishment" and "more punishment".
If their superiors ordered, or gave the impression that they were ordering, this behavior, then they are part of the "those who actually did it" category, even if they didn't actually touch any prisoners.
If people knew what was going, but did not stop it, they are accessories. Where did England get those prisoners? Did she capture them all themselves? If you capture someone and then hand them over to someone else, aren't you responsible for what happens to the prisoner?

 

[Mycroft]

Where did England get those prisoners? Did she capture them all themselves?

My understanding is that England was a clerk or something that wouldn't normally handle prisoners. She was there to visit her boyfried, Granger.

 

[Chaos]

The only test is the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. I've seen guys with a General/Technical Score of 60, (which is literally a room-temperature IQ) get jobs with Military Intelligence Units. (Thus, completing the cliche...)

°F or °C room temperature?

 

[Bikewer]

When I was in the infantry back in the 60s, we had a guy who went on and on about how the army was the "best job he ever had".

Naturally we inquired as to his civilian occupation.
"Chicken plucker". Guy used to read Little Audrey comic books.

 

[Roadtoad]

°F or °C room temperature?

Either one works, Chaos.

Back when I was in Germany, (and frankly, while I hated being in the military, I LOVED Wuerzburg), I would see guys argue with the German cops all the time. While the Germans had a certain rep for toughness, most of the time, they demonstrated far more common sense and courtesy than most of the military MPs I knew. They would stand and take verbal abuse that no MP would have tolerated.

Once the GI had shouted himself out, the cop would simply explain, "We can do this easy, or we can do it hard. If we do it easy, you get a fine, and you go on your way. We do it hard, and we'll be contacting your commanding officer, and your chain of command."

I never had any trouble with German cops, and for the most part, when I encountered them, it was on a friendly basis. I even made a few friends among them.

On the other hand, I knew GIs who just grooved on pushing their luck, even as they waved their "Status of Forces" cards in their faces, claiming they couldn't be arrested (False), that they were ONLY to obey orders from MPs (False), and they could do anything they damned well pleased, (False.) I saw a lot of these guys spewing that sort of thing from our local MI battalion, both when I was in Ansbach, and when I was in Wuerzburg. I learned in a hurry to not trust these guys, ever.

 

[Garrette]

I met guys like those, too, Roadtoad, and not just in Germany. Barracks lawyers are idiots and usually somewhat dangerous, if only to morale.

I was stopped one time by Polizei, for speeding in Frankfurt. It was legit.

I kept my hands on the wheel and answered questions politiely.

He was very nice in explaining what I had done wrong then asked me how many DM I had on me.

The amount in my wallet coincidentally matched the amount of the fine.

 

[Chaos]

*snip*
He was very nice in explaining what I had done wrong then asked me how many DM I had on me.

The amount in my wallet coincidentally matched the amount of the fine.

That´s actually not quite what it appears to be. If the cops stop you for some relatively minor traffic offense (and in the case I was involved in, they came to the site of an accident I caused that totalle about 6,000$ in damages - just to give you a perspective of what I mean with "minor" ), the cops can choose whether to give you a "real" ticket, a hefty fine, and probably an entry into the Flensburg registry of traffic offenders, and maybe taking away your license for one or more months - or they can offer to let you off with a warning and a relatively small fine (ca. 40$ in my case). I was quite surprised I got off so easily, but I was told later that this was perfectly legitimate.

 

[Bikewer]

Roadtoad:

You stationed in Wurzburg? I was just a few klicks away, in Kitzingen. (Ist of the 15th infantry) Wurzburg was the place to go for better-class entertainment than the gin mills in town.
That was back in the mid 60s.

 

[Roadtoad]

Roadtoad:

You stationed in Wurzburg? I was just a few klicks away, in Kitzingen. (Ist of the 15th infantry) Wurzburg was the place to go for better-class entertainment than the gin mills in town.
That was back in the mid 60s.

I know Kitzingen well. It's gotten a lot nicer, I hear. It was certainly a nice place when I was there.

At the time, I was with AFN Wuerzburg, which opened in 1980, if I recall correctly, and ultimately, I was supposed to go to AFN Moenchengladbach, (try saying that three times fast) once it opened for business. However, the Cold War ended, and a lot of the AFRTS stations closed.

You should PM Rikzilla. He was in Frankfurt, and got around Germany quite a bit, IIRC, too.

 

[Roadtoad]

I met guys like those, too, Roadtoad, and not just in Germany. Barracks lawyers are idiots and usually somewhat dangerous, if only to morale.

I was stopped one time by Polizei, for speeding in Frankfurt. It was legit.

I kept my hands on the wheel and answered questions politiely.

He was very nice in explaining what I had done wrong then asked me how many DM I had on me.

The amount in my wallet coincidentally matched the amount of the fine.

True story:

My mother got stopped between Frankfurt and Oberuersel. The cop walked up to her yellow VW and asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?"

"Yes, Officer."

"Do you have any money?"

"Yes, Officer."

"Give it to me."

"Yes, Officer," my mother said, passing him 20 DM.

He handed her a receipt, and drove off, with my mother muttering to herself, "Have a nice lunch."

So, I made the mistake of telling a buddy of mine this story. Not more than 10km after that, we got lit up on the 'Bahn between Wuerzburg and Bad Kissingen.

The conversation went:

"Do you know how fast you were going?"

"Yes, Officer."

"Do you have any money?"

"Yes, Officer."

"Give it to me."

"Yes, Officer," my buddy said, passing him 20 DM.

The cop handed him a receipt, and was walking back to his car when my friend bellowed out, "HAVE A NICE LUNCH!!!"

The cop stopped, turned around, and s-l-o-w-l-y walked back to my friend, and when he got eyeball to eyeball with him, smiled and said, "Thank you. I will."

And then, he walked off.

 

[Bikewer]

We (me and my buddy) had a 1953 VW that we'd bought for 50.00. Tooled around quite a bit, even though it had no starter. (with the old 36 hp engine, you only had to push it a couple of feet)

We got stopped by the Polizi one day (in another VW!) and were fairly terrified. The officer came up and said we had a taillight out. 5-mark fine, paid on the spot. At the time, that was 1.25 US.

Hehe- back in '65, Kitzingen wasn't so nice. Ancient WWII-era barracks with the heat out half the time, and only enough hot water for about half the unit to get clean.

We could't hire German civilians for KP, and we were in the field about half the year. Definitely contributed to my lack of re-enlistment!

 

[jay gw]

FORT HOOD, Texas May 3, 2005 — Defense lawyers sought leniency for Pfc. Lynndie England at a hearing Tuesday to determine her punishment in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal, with a psychologist testifying that the reservist was oxygen-deprived at birth, speech impaired and had trouble learning to read.

How sad. Once again the powerful and rich take advantage of those that life has cursed.

I hope you all feel better after mocking her.