Let's Experiment On My 3 Year-Old

[Kaylee]

I got theories.

In kindness;

They probably don't count.

Go ahead, spill. You raised two daughters.

 

[quarky]

in the morning.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Ahem, that video says "20th Century Fox Research Library". It's a teaser for the upcoming Planet of the Apes movie.

Sorry--but they borrowed the video from and gave an accurate summary of the real research:


http://www.pri.kyoto-u.ac.jp/ai/video/video_library/project/project.html

(I should have known better than trying to locate these videos on YouTube!)

They covered this on a recent NOVA (or NOVA ScienceNOW). This was also in the mainstream news a few years ago.

ETA: I watched the YouTube video again, and it correctly identified this as being from the Kyoto Primate Research Center. I missed the Fox caption because my video controller covered it. Anyway, it's real.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How about morality/ethics tests?

I think at least some of these would overlap the theory of the mind tests. I remember one (actually it was demonstrating a brain intervention that hampered the ability of adults to give conventionally correct answers) that was about 1 chemist attempting to murder another by putting what he thought was poison into the other's coffee. It was revealed that the substance was actually just sugar, so the intended victim was unharmed. The subject is then asked to rate the morality of the first guy's actions on a scale.

(This was also on NOVA not so long ago. IIRC, they were demonstrating the effects of a magnetic pulse wand that might be a less invasive alternative to ECT for intractable depression. But they showed how aiming it at the right place on the head and activating it at the right time, screwed up people's answers to this morality test.)

 

[Michael Mozina]

The six year old initially indicated the taller glass held more water. When I walked him through it all step by step a second time, he said they both had the same amount.

The three year old then grabbed the measuring cup and hilarity ensued.

Which only demonstrates yet again that kids are fun and entertaining.

 

[dropzone]

If you were a real parent you would know that they won't mow the lawn.

One does. It's a miracle, but one does. Now if they'd shovel snow without me going into Fred Sanford mode....

 

[Kaylee]

Fascinating thread.

This is what I want to know though -- if LL were to teach his 3 year old that "Elmo" would look at the first cup first instead of letting him get to that realization on his own -- would that mess him up?

How important is it that children lean some things on their own?

Anybody happen to know if there are any theories on that?

I thought about this question some more. I had been wondering if there were some biological constraints that prevented children from hitting some cognitive milestones (e.g., theory of mind and the "same volume, different size containers" exercise LL did with his kids) before a certain age.

For example its understood that many people will be impulsive through their early 20s because of the way the human brain usually matures.

However, after doing some googling I can't find any mention of biological constraints on the healthy brain's ability to learn these concepts.

So ...

You have got to be kidding. 9 years old? This seems more like an issue of keeping a kid totally unexposed to the way the world works. I was cooking with my mom by the time I was 4. There is absolutely no way I would have thought that the amount of liquid changed according to which container we poured a measured cup of liquid into.

It looks like Doghouse Reilly nailed it on the head. Learning these concepts have more to do with kids exposure to them than anything else.

As long as kids aren't told the answers but are helped to reason through them, they actually will probably benefit.

The six year old initially indicated the taller glass held more water. When I walked him through it all step by step a second time, he said they both had the same amount.
<snipped>

Much like LL's 6 year old appeared to have benefited by being walked through the "same volume of water in different shape containers" exercise.

And I realized that I have already read about the pros and cons of various styles of parents teaching (or not teaching) their children in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers: The Story of Success where he discusses the concepts of "natural growth" vs. "concerted cultivation." Most kids do better with the concerted cultivation approach.

 

[Elaedith]

Fascinating thread.

This is what I want to know though -- if LL were to teach his 3 year old that "Elmo" would look at the first cup first instead of letting him get to that realization on his own -- would that mess him up?

How important is it that children lean some things on their own?

Anybody happen to know if there are any theories on that?

According to Piaget, development was constrained by a maturational timetable and all children passed through the same cognitive milestones at approximately the same age universally. If the child was not cognitively ready to pass a critical milestone then no amount of coaching would improve performance. However, Piaget has been criticised on this, as well as the fact that his tasks are often inappropriate for young children because they don't understand what they are being asked.

 

[Kaylee]

According to Piaget, development was constrained by a maturational timetable and all children passed through the same cognitive milestones at approximately the same age universally. If the child was not cognitively ready to pass a critical milestone then no amount of coaching would improve performance. However, Piaget has been criticised on this, as well as the fact that his tasks are often inappropriate for young children because they don't understand what they are being asked.

Not my field, but I would imagine it must be difficult, even for scientists, to be able to step outside of ourselves and truly comprehend everything that we need to learn on our way towards becoming human.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) scientists probably have more of a glimpse of how difficult that must be.

 

[malaka]

Excellent thread! My own, 1st daughter is only 2 months old. I can't wait until she is old enough to know some basic math. I'll ask her, "How many fingers do I have?" Once she replies, "10", I'll say "Are you sure?" and then count backwards using my fingers: 10 (pinkie), 9 (ring), 8 (middle), 7 (index), 6 (thumb). Then ask her how many fingers remain on the other hand. Once she replies "5", I'll ask her, "...and what is 6 + 5?"

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I thought about this question some more. I had been wondering if there were some biological constraints that prevented children from hitting some cognitive milestones (e.g., theory of mind and the "same volume, different size containers" exercise LL did with his kids) before a certain age.

Well. . . I don't think there is a constraint. I think a lot of these early milestones are simply about learning and brain organization. For young kids, a lot of learning is selecting which synapses to keep and which to let atrophy. (For older folks, more learning involves creating new synapses, which is why things like language acquisition happens so amazingly quickly and effortlessly at the critical stage in development.)

Milestones are all approximate, and there are examples of precocity. Normal healthy brains do in fact learn these things (object invariance, theory of the mind, etc.).

Excellent thread! My own, 1st daughter is only 2 months old. I can't wait until she is old enough to know some basic math. I'll ask her, "How many fingers do I have?" Once she replies, "10", I'll say "Are you sure?" and then count backwards using my fingers: 10 (pinkie), 9 (ring), 8 (middle), 7 (index), 6 (thumb). Then ask her how many fingers remain on the other hand. Once she replies "5", I'll ask her, "...and what is 6 + 5?"

OK now *that* is simply child abuse!

Actually, it's the basis of a lot of clown gags. Usually, if you keep repeating it, the kids figure it out quickly enough.

(And for some reason clowns think it's clever or funny to pretend not to get it and keep doing the task wrong while kids all shout out what he's doing wrong. I'm with Terry Pratchett on this one: "No clowns were funny. That was the whole purpose of a clown. People laughed at clowns, but only out of nervousness. The point of clowns was that, after watching them, anything else that happened seemed enjoyable." )

 

[quarky]

One does. It's a miracle, but one does. Now if they'd shovel snow without me going into Fred Sanford mode....

Might you have a book I could buy ($19.99 plus tax?) that spills your secrets?
I only had girls. Two. Pretty girls. Not construction workers or farmers.
I forgive them.

 

[Loss Leader]

I'd be interested in his response to this ...

The yellow bus is at the zoo.
All your friends are on the yellow bus.
----------------------------------------
Do you know where your friends are?

Shows how much I know about kids lol.

What if you said, I'm going to tell you a story ...

There is a yellow school bus at the zoo.
There are a bunch of puppies on that yellow school bus.
-------------------------------------------------
So where do you think the puppies are?

The three year old was unable to correctly answer either of these questions. He insisted his friends were at their houses and the monkeys (which I said instead of puppies) lived in the forest.

Amazingly, the 3 year-old's answers came after the 6 year-old shouted out "At the zoo." And the 3 year-old continued on his wrong answers even as my older boy was yelling at him, "No, they're at the zoo!"

Experimenter bias.

Actually, I'd go with Hawthorne Effect. He kept guessing until he found the answer that he thought I wanted. But, without question, the experiment was unscientific in many respects.

I thought about this question some more. I had been wondering if there were some biological constraints that prevented children from hitting some cognitive milestones (e.g., theory of mind and the "same volume, different size containers" exercise LL did with his kids) before a certain age.

For example its understood that many people will be impulsive through their early 20s because of the way the human brain usually matures.

However, after doing some googling I can't find any mention of biological constraints on the healthy brain's ability to learn these concepts.

Loss of impulsiveness and ability to see moral shades of grey, at least, are associated with myelination.

 

[inquiringone]

The three year old was unable to correctly answer either of these questions. He insisted his friends were at their houses and the monkeys (which I said instead of puppies) lived in the forest.

Amazingly, the 3 year-old's answers came after the 6 year-old shouted out "At the zoo." And the 3 year-old continued on his wrong answers even as my older boy was yelling at him, "No, they're at the zoo!"





Actually, I'd go with Hawthorne Effect. He kept guessing until he found the answer that he thought I wanted. But, without question, the experiment was unscientific in many respects.





Loss of impulsiveness and ability to see moral shades of grey, at least, are associated with myelination.

What would that say about high-functioning autistics and others who have trouble seeing things in terms other than black and white?

 

[Loss Leader]

What would that say about high-functioning autistics and others who have trouble seeing things in terms other than black and white?

I don't know. I'm not sure that the autistic brain is understood well-enough to say. In a normal brain, as I understand it, myelination occurs from back to front. It affects the judgment center of the brain last - in one's late teens or early twenties.

Clearly, myelin alone is not responsible for emotional awareness, situational ethics and judgment. It just aids that type of thinking in the normal brain.

 

[falkowsi]

Try the marshmallow experiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZ5R9EA968

 

[Halfcentaur]

Ahem, that video says "20th Century Fox Research Library". It's a teaser for the upcoming Planet of the Apes movie.

While that is indeed for Planet of the Apes, I've seen the same test performed and indeed that's an established and actual fact about the short term memory. I think the Nova episode on ape intelligence demonstrates the same test, with a touch video screen.

 

[Halfcentaur]

How about morality/ethics tests?

I think at least some of these would overlap the theory of the mind tests. I remember one (actually it was demonstrating a brain intervention that hampered the ability of adults to give conventionally correct answers) that was about 1 chemist attempting to murder another by putting what he thought was poison into the other's coffee. It was revealed that the substance was actually just sugar, so the intended victim was unharmed. The subject is then asked to rate the morality of the first guy's actions on a scale.

(This was also on NOVA not so long ago. IIRC, they were demonstrating the effects of a magnetic pulse wand that might be a less invasive alternative to ECT for intractable depression. But they showed how aiming it at the right place on the head and activating it at the right time, screwed up people's answers to this morality test.)

The female scientist in the show also gave a TED talk about this very subject as well.

 

[Loss Leader]

Try the marshmallow experiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZ5R9EA968

Under less than ideal circumstances, the 3 year-old made it four and a half minutes.

 

[gmarshall]

Both of your kids might be too old for this one. Around three years old, kids learn how to lie.

First have two items, one desirable and one not (candy or toy versus something like a disliked food). Ask the child which one they want but tell them which ever they pick will go to the other child and they get what's left. If they can lie, they will pick the less desirable item for their "favorite" item. Try multiple times to see if they catch on.

Enjoy corrupting your kids