Leslie Raphael's (Public) Conveniences

[Gravy]

I was surprised to see the despicable Ray Ubinger back for more. I have him on ignore, but I can see some of his quotes in others' posts.

Originally Posted by Ray Ubinger :
It's too fat for a ballpoint, though I've wondered whether it's maybe a magic marker. Still, I discern a plunger-shaped top, and a needle-shaped bottom.

I abandon my original opinion that anything in the scene can be ID'd as a gun. But what is the "cattleprod," with its unsegmented, pointy rod sticking out?

And I pronounce him to be the stupidest conspiracy nut I've come across. And that is really, really saying something.

'zat you, Ray?

 

[Ray Ubinger]

Tony's flippin' sore

How.
Did.
His.
Sore.
Change.
Cheeks?
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonysore.htm

We only see his sore in those two shots.

I agree the sore is absent from Tony's left cheek in the clip from that same evening when he reflects on how hard it was to watch the casket go by. I also agree the sore is absent from Tony's left cheek three days earlier when he recounts that Gorumba (whose name he doesn't mention) "passed away" (he doesn't say how).
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonyreaction.htm

Yet you're figuring that the sore was on Tony's left cheek?

(Incidentally, no shot from the Gorumba sequence (which is 2% of the movie excluding morgues' gallery and credits) shows both of Tony's cheeks.)

Has it ever occured to you that the OTHER shot is the one that is flipped?

This is the first you've admitted they even did a mirror-image, isn't it? Thank you for answering how his sore changed cheeks.

No, now that you ask; it has never occurred to me that they would direct firefighters to SALUTE with the LEFT hand, and then UNDO THEIR OWN DIRECTION by mirror-imaging the shot to make it appear like it was a normal right-handed salute all along. It has also never occurred to me that a quarter-sized w-shaped bright red sore on a man's left cheek could be distinctly visible in the morning but be vanished w/o trace from the man's left cheek that same evening.


Ray Ubinger

 

[Regnad Kcin]

...It's too fat for a ballpoint, though I've wondered whether it's maybe a magic marker. Still, I discern a plunger-shaped top, and a needle-shaped bottom.
Screenshot:
http://911foreknowledge.com/syringe.jpg

Still "too fat for a ballpoint?"

 

[gumboot]

This is the first you've admitted they even did a mirror-image, isn't it? Thank you for answering how his sore changed cheeks.

Actually the first time you presented this "evidence" I suggested that if any shot was flipped it was more likely the salute one, providing reasons why. But never mind.

No, now that you ask; it has never occurred to me that they would direct firefighters to SALUTE with the LEFT hand, and then UNDO THEIR OWN DIRECTION by mirror-imaging the shot to make it appear like it was a normal right-handed salute all along.

Not even after I suggested exactly that?

Yet it has occured to you that a couple of French filmmakers and a bunch of New York firemen conspired together to make a snuff movie by murdering a FDNY chaplain with a firearm and syringe against the backdrop of the WTC attack, which they KNEW in advance was going to happen?

Um. Ray. That's... well, it's insane. Completely insane.

It has also never occurred to me that a quarter-sized w-shaped bright red sore on a man's left cheek could be distinctly visible in the morning but be vanished w/o trace from the man's left cheek that same evening.

The only thing we know about the footage of Tony in question is a) it happened after the funeral and b) it happened before 9/11.

Except, of course, since you claim Tony is a lying actor who never went to the funeral, that clip could have been recorded any time whatsoever.

-Andrew

 

[60hzxtl]

Gumboot, that's it!

The key to the whole 9/11 mystery - Re-open the investigation, Ray will pay for it until the government coughs up the money.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

This is the first you've admitted they even did a mirror-image, isn't it?

Actually the first time you presented this "evidence" I suggested that if any shot was flipped it was more likely the salute one, providing reasons why.

You are confirming that you resisted the idea that they did a mirror-image at all: "IF ANY shot was flipped..." Instead you tried to pretend the video quality was too poor to determine that the sore changed cheeks.

it has never occurred to me that they would direct firefighters to SALUTE with the LEFT hand, and then UNDO THEIR OWN DIRECTION by mirror-imaging the shot to make it appear like it was a normal right-handed salute all along.

Not even after I suggested exactly that?

You said something about the firemen being directed to salute with the wrong hand?? Why would the Naudets want to film a left-handed salute, in your interpretation? And then why would they undo their very own direction, with a mirror-image?

The only thing we know about the footage of Tony in question is a) it happened after the funeral and b) it happened before 9/11.

I would agree there's no footage of Tony taken at the Gorumba funeral. They sure want us to think there is, though. They faked his attendance. They sneakily spliced him in to the blurry-fast pan-left across the crowd. They did a mirror-image to make the truck passing him be going in the same direction as the funeral procession.

Further evidence of that being the mirror-imaged shot (besides that his left cheek is once again UNblemished later that same day--or did they mirror-image that too, heehee!),
is that the shadow of his hat onto his face when the truck passes him, is in the opposite direction of the shadow of the truck onto the street when we see the whole truck.
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonysore.htm


Ray Ubinger

 

[60hzxtl]

Free yourself Ray!

Confess!

You know you want to!

You were in on it!

We recognize your cry for help.

 

[Trifikas]

Definitly a flipped frame in there - you can tell by observing how the light / shadow on his face switches in the two shots, and the pillar in the background switches from over one shoulder to the other*. The clip is too short, but a full view should be able to determine where the lightsource is to determine wich is "Correct" and wich is "Flipped".

However, using this as basis that the Naudets were in on anything is a little too great a leap of logic. It's at most, artistic liscense. I mean, where does he fit into a conspiracy? What's in it for him to be a part of it?

Trifikas

*other possible explanations are he's cut on both sides of his face,and that they got one of the shots then went back later in the day to shoot a few filler clips, that later-day sun having moved so it's shining the opposite direction. This is an unlikely scenario, but it's possible.

 

[gumboot]

Definitly a flipped frame in there - you can tell by observing how the light / shadow on his face switches in the two shots, and the pillar in the background switches from over one shoulder to the other*. The clip is too short, but a full view should be able to determine where the lightsource is to determine wich is "Correct" and wich is "Flipped".

The light is deceptive. Wider shots from the same scene indicate the light is diffuse and non-directional - a result of an overcast day. This is reflected by the colouring of the shots.

On overcast days the light is also "hotter" - with a colour temperature as high as 7,000 or even 10,000 degrees K (as opposed to 5,600 degrees K (nominal daylight) or 3,200 degrees K (tungsten).

This means you get burn-out pretty easily, especially on pale things like a human face. It also means there is no directional light, so you can't judge the images from that.

I also believe it fairly likely one of the shots is mirrored. I think the salute one more likely simply because some of the salutes look really weird, as if they're doing it with their left hand, and some of them are not wearing gloves.

I don't know WHY they'd do that. Someone would have to ask them why one of these shots is flipped, and see how they responded.

My main point is Ray contends one of the said shots is "faked" later. I find it more plausible that they got together a bunch of people and did a salute fake, than they actually got a fire engine involved.

Of course, after all this there's the rather good point, as you made, that none of this in any way support's Ray's ridiculous notions of a snuff film.

-Andrew

 

[Trifikas]

It's certainly tough from that shot to determine where the flip is. But it's more a videography curiosity than anything else.

The why is simple - it made the video flow better, and was an editing decision. Even if it is determined that one of those shots was staged, it's not proof that tony WASN'T there.

One of the thing that bugs me the most is: Why tell the Naudets? My thought would be if there is a Government Conspiracy, wouldn't you prefer to have Less video evidence rather than more? Less chance that someone would film something shady going on? Oh, well. add it to the list of things that don't make sense in the Conspiracy angle.

Mark this thread as done.

Trifikas.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

One of the thing that bugs me the most is: Why tell the Naudets? My thought would be if there is a Government Conspiracy, wouldn't you prefer to have Less video evidence rather than more? Less chance that someone would film something shady going on? Oh, well. add it to the list of things that don't make sense in the Conspiracy angle.

You're failing to take into account the true genius of the Conspirators. Everyone knows that Conspiracies want as little evidence as possible left behind. So they leave evidence behind so that "skeptics" like yourself will pounce on it as proof that there is no Conspiracy. You've fallen right into their hands.

 

[CptColumbo]

It is a common practice in documentary (and any) film-making to flip a shot. This is usually done to avoid "flipping perspective," moving from one side of a subject to another, which can be jarring and confusing to a viewer.
Imagine watching a football game on TV, and in the middle of the play they went to a shot from the other side of the field from the previous one. You would probably be so distracted by the change you would loose track of what was actually happening in the play. Furthermore, one cannot always get a shot from the angle or position you want, so you make changes in post-production that make the film more aesthetically pleasing, while not comprimising the intergrity of the film. This also includes insert shots, to make the film flow better.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

It is a common practice in documentary (and any) film-making to flip a shot. This is usually done to avoid "flipping perspective," moving from one side of a subject to another, which can be jarring and confusing to a viewer.

I agree it's jarring to realize that the truck passing Tony was going in the opposite direction of the real funeral procession. No wonder they flipped that shot. To cover their mistake of driving the truck at the fake funeral the wrong way.
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonysore.htm

The camera stayed on the side of the street that was empty, shown at the end of the first excerpt at
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/crowd.htm

I can't decide which was more slick -- the mirror-image to cover the mistake of the truck direction, or the way they spliced Tony in to the real funeral scene during the blurry-fast pan-left of the crowd.

The Aug. 28 timing of Michael Gorumba's unusual death, at a fire of uncertain origin, was highly useful. First it advanced the plotline and dramatic tension of the ongoing Naudet movie, right when the Naudets were getting worried that the movie was going nowhere due to lack of fires for Tony to fight ... but "be careful what you wish for," the elders warn them -- cue Gorumba's death. Then, the death enabled Rudy Giuliani to arrange (at Gorumba's Sept. 1 funeral) to make political gain two weeks later, by giving away Gorumba's sister Diane at her wedding on 9/15, in a life-goes-on, "return to normalcy" four days after the catastrophe.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=giuliani+gorumba


Ray Ubinger

 

[CptColumbo]

You completely misunderstood what I was writing about, but why should I be surprised?

 

[Trifikas]

Do we know that Tony wasn't at the funeral? Getting Make-up shots doesn't mean he WASN'T there to begin with, just that they wanted a few more shots. What do we have on that?

And from everything I've read so far, there wasn't anything sinister about Gorumba's Death. Gorumba had a childhood heart murmur, And although had passed a fireman's physical earlier in the year, had an irregular heartbeat. He suffered a heart attack at a 3-alarm blaze working one of the more strenuous positions on the Firefighting team:

http://www.worldfiredepartments.com/news_fdny_ff_gorumba.htm

Also, Gorumba's Mother ASKED Mayor Giuliani to give away His sister at Her wedding. Unless you want to try and convince us he used his mind-controlling super powers to get Gorumba's Mother to ask him, your going to have to drop this line of reasoning.

Trifikas

 

[Ray Ubinger]

You completely misunderstood what I was writing about[.]

You wrote that flipping a shot "is usually done to avoid 'flipping perspective,' moving from one side of a subject to another". I stand by my retort: The camera in this case stayed on one side of the street, the side that didn't have firefighters on it, visible at the end of the first excerpt at
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/crowd.htm


Ray Ubinger

 

[60hzxtl]

C'mon Ray, admit it - editing techniques, the grammar of film, avoiding a jump cut -- they all do it. It's part of the conspiracy.

Surrender Ray, you know you want to clear your conscience!

You knew Ray! That's why they can't count your votes!

 

[Ray Ubinger]

Definitly a flipped frame in there - you can tell by observing how the light / shadow on his face switches in the two shots, and the pillar in the background switches from over one shoulder to the other*. The clip is too short, but a full view should be able to determine where the lightsource is to determine wich is "Correct" and wich is "Flipped".

The light is deceptive.

Hee hee, "deceptive light" made the pillar on the house in the background move from one side of Tony to the other!

How about the way one side of his neck is much brighter than the other--except that the much-brighter and much-darker halves change sides? Did some "deceptive light" make that switch? Sneaky ol' Sun, har har!

And how about the shot on the train on the way to the funeral, where the sore is first seen ... on Tony's RIGHT cheek:
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/train.htm
Do you think they flipped THAT shot, since you're still clinging to the notion that the sore was on his LEFT cheek?

And how about the FIRST shot of him allegedly at the funeral, when his LEFT cheek is UNblemished?
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/clearface.jpg
Do you think they flipped THAT shot TOO?

And how about the shot later that same day, where Tony, in closeup, with LEFT cheek UNblemished again (after being blemished when the truck passed him), tearfully talks about how hard it was to watch the casket go by? (Not excerpted yet, sorry.) Do you think they flipped THAT shot TOO?

I also believe it fairly likely one of the shots is mirrored.

"ALSO" believe "FAIRLY LIKELY?" Trifikas said there was DEFINITELY a flip.

I think the salute one more likely

But you concede POSSIBLY the passing-truck shot MIGHT be the flipped one, INSTEAD? In other words you now RETRACT your condescendingly absolute assertion, "The. Shot. With. The. Truck. In. It. Is. Not. Flipped."?

I don't know WHY they'd do that [i.e. ask firemen to salute with their left hands for the camera].

Yeah, you sure don't why, do you -- because there's no conceivable reason! Especially since your interpretation then commits you to saying the filmmakers REVERSED the salute to make it LOOK like it was RIGHT-handed all along.


GUMBOOT'S SCENARIO:

Firefighters: Um, salute with our LEFT hands?? Why the hell do you want us to do that, Naudet Brothers?

Naudet Brothers: Trust us, we know what we're doing -- even if a highly experienced moviemaker from New Zealand also can't imagine any possible reason for it.

Firefighters: Well, okay, if you say so. Here goes.

Naudet Brothers, later in the editing room: Oops, they SHOULDN'T have trusted us, we DIDN'T know what we were doing! Now we have to mirror-image it, so it will look OPPOSITE to what we specifically REQUESTED from them.

HAW HAW HAW!!!

Someone would have to ask them why one of these shots is flipped, and see how they responded.

Um, someone would have to FIND them first, and get them to talk. I don't think they'll ever be sighted in public again, unless we get lucky and see them in handcuffs.
http://www.blogigo.co.uk/socialdemocracynow/200510

I find it more plausible that they got together a bunch of people and did a salute fake, than they actually got a fire engine involved.

I find it more plausible that they got a fire engine involved than that they flipped the train shot AND flipped the first-Tony-at-funeral shot AND flipped the tearful-recollection shot.

Incidentally, his left cheek is also shown as unblemished three days earlier, when he had trouble keeping a straight face while recounting that Gorumba (whose name he doesn't say) "passed away" (he doesn't say how):
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonyreaction.htm

And you can call me nuts, but I also think it's more plausible that they got a fire engine involved than that they got the SUN to jump around. Since you still haven't conceded that they definitely did a mirror-image.

Of course, after all this there's the rather good point, as you made, that none of this in any way support's Ray's ridiculous notions of a snuff film.

Tony is the starting point of the story. He is the alleged original subject of the whole documentary. Showing they faked his attendance at Gorumba's funeral supports my claim that Tony was just an actor in an elaborate ruse -- a cover story -- an excuse -- a ruse scripted to explain in advance how they would become able to get their intended-all-along 9/11 footage.

I think they also faked Tony's attendance at one of his almost-fire calls, the one he called something like 'just some smoke from an elevator.' (Not excerpted yet, sorry.) The one shot of him there has background details and other firemen in it which do not match up with any other shot from that incident. As a staged appearance it serves to show him on the job, even though he is once again not actually doing anything. He is once again just standing there looking pretty in a uniform. Same as in his FEMA photos at Ground Zero (links now blocked or broken, but maybe someone can find them on an archive?
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/high/ny_wtc_519.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/high/ny_wtc_520.jpg
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photodata/high/ny_wtc_522.jpg
).

I also think Tony wasn't really at GZ on 9/11, when it was most dangerous. I think they only trained him to act, not to do real firefighter work. A plot device is constructed to separate him from the cameraman on his way to WTC/GZ on 9/11. (Tony deems some forgotten-by-him "box of medical gloves" important enough to make the cameraman go fetch, but not important enough to wait for.) Then in a post-9/11 clip he has trouble keeping a straight face while telling an outlandish tall tale about being there.
http://911foreknowledge.com/badbleed.htm
A man with a major arterial bleed, his arm SEVERED AT THE SHOULDER, was HOLDING his severed arm AND RUNNING AROUND? Yeah, right! But hey, they needed to have Tony say SOMETHING about being there, since they didn't SHOW him being there.


Ray Ubinger

 

[gumboot]

You wrote that flipping a shot "is usually done to avoid 'flipping perspective,' moving from one side of a subject to another". I stand by my retort: The camera in this case stayed on one side of the street, the side that didn't have firefighters on it, visible at the end of the first excerpt at

Ray you clearly don't understand what is being said. Go do some research into a thing called "crossing the line".

It's a very bad mistake that inexperienced filmmakers often make. The easiest way to solve it is to flip the shot.

Hint: it has to do with eye-lines.

-Andrew

 

[gumboot]

Hee hee, "deceptive light" made the pillar on the house in the background move from one side of Tony to the other!

It never occured to you that the "house" (I say building) has more than one pillar? You can do better than that.

How about the way one side of his neck is much brighter than the other--except that the much-brighter and much-darker halves change sides? Did some "deceptive light" make that switch? Sneaky ol' Sun, har har!

When you have a large light source it becomes more difficult to judge direction of light. On an over-cast day the light source becomes the entire sky. The sun becomes irrelevant. This is called diffusion. It produces AMBIENT light. Which is NON-DIRECTIONAL. It means THE LIGHT IS COMING FROM EVERY DIRECTION AT ONCE.

Got it?



Now. I don't care about them flipping shots, at all. I don't care if they flipped every shot in the entire film.

I will happily and cheerfully conceed that your precious fire-engine shot has been flipped. If you conceed that your entire accusation towards the Naudets and FDNY is sick and completely without basis in reality.

Deal?

I didn't think so.

-Andrew