Leslie Raphael's (Public) Conveniences

[Gravy]

Originally Posted by Ray Ubinger :

(I hold that neither Tower was hit by a plane.)

Oh.

I hadn't noticed this before. Yep, all the New Yorkers who saw this happen with their own eyes – thousands in the case of the first plane, hundreds of thousands in the case of the second plane – are wrong. The millions who saw the second strike live on TV have been deceived. Thousands of professional and amateur photos and videos have been expertly faked. All of the air traffic controllers are lying. All of the 767 debris and passenger remains was planted around lower Manhattan by an army of people who scampered out from hiding as soon as Ray's mystery objects struck. All of the phone calls were faked.

But Ray Ubinger knows the truth.

Ray, if you believe this, you are seriously disturbed, and should seek professional help.

Goodbye, and good luck.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

I'm leaning towards the bravenewworld footage to be Gedeon's at the time of the second collapse.

That can't be right, because Gedeon's own post-1st-Collapse, pre-2nd-Collapse footage of Church-Murray -- during his ride down Church from the firehouse w/3 ff's in their red pickup truck -- shows that the dust from the 1st Collapse alone was sufficient to totally transform how Church-Murray looked.

In this BBC interview he says he was at the firehouse both at the time of the first hit (8:46am), and also when he saw the first collapse (9:59am)

Then I wonder who shot the second of the two clips at
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier3.htm
wherein it seems to me the WTC-2 cloud is still in the process of chasing people up the street.

Then Gedeon gets a lift down there in a firetruck with some firemen who'd come in from home.

Not in a firetruck, just in a red pickup truck, is what the movie shows.

He says he saw the second tower collapse:

I wonder why we don't see footage of it by him. I suspect they felt it would overplay their hand of how "lucky" they were, that both brothers would have gotten footage of the 2nd collapse each from within about 100 yards of it.

In the bravenewworld clip, clip#1, and the two clips taken near Church & Murray, clips #2 & 3, you can see he is walking up Church towards Murray, and he turns as an FBI agent walks past (clip#3 (and a man starts to point at what I believe is the dust cloud coming)).

If you mean the first dust cloud, then you just contradicted Gedeon's story that Gedeon was at firehouse during 1st Collapse.

I would guess that the firetruck was behind him before he started walking in clip#1.

Gedeon's pickup-truck-assisted trip down Church St. from firehouse to WTC was not until after WTC-2 collapse dust was already all over the place.

All the excerpts on the page
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/constructiondebris.htm
are from Church-Murray before 1st Collapse.

Church-Murray after 1st Collapse looked like a scene from the moon:
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/peopleindust.htm

Clip #1 shows more people to the right already looking up at the towers than in the bravenewworld2 footage. That footage with its dubbed-in sound is misleading. The people looking up are probably just checking on the building as it burns.

At least THREE people in the clip
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
SUDDENLY whirl their gaze around and/or up at the SAME TIME.


Ray Ubinger

 

[Ray Ubinger]

I'm leaning towards the bravenewworld footage to be Gedeon's at the time of the second collapse.

That can't be right, because Gedeon's own post-1st-Collapse, pre-2nd-Collapse footage of Church-Murray -- during his ride down Church from the firehouse w/3 ff's in their red pickup truck -- shows that the dust from the 1st Collapse alone was sufficient to totally transform how Church-Murray looked.

In this BBC interview he says he was at the firehouse both at the time of the first hit (8:46am), and also when he saw the first collapse (9:59am)

Then I wonder who shot the second of the two clips at
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier3.htm
wherein it seems to me the WTC-2 cloud is still in the process of chasing people up the street.

Then Gedeon gets a lift down there in a firetruck with some firemen who'd come in from home.

Not in a firetruck, just in a red pickup truck, is what the movie shows.

He says he saw the second tower collapse:

I wonder why we don't see footage of it by him. I suspect they felt it would overplay their hand of how "lucky" they were, that both brothers would have gotten footage of the 2nd collapse each from within about 100 yards of it.

In the bravenewworld clip, clip#1, and the two clips taken near Church & Murray, clips #2 & 3, you can see he is walking up Church towards Murray, and he turns as an FBI agent walks past (clip#3 (and a man starts to point at what I believe is the dust cloud coming)).

If you mean the first dust cloud, then you just contradicted Gedeon's story that Gedeon was at firehouse during 1st Collapse.

I would guess that the firetruck was behind him before he started walking in clip#1.

Gedeon's pickup-truck-assisted trip down Church St. from firehouse to WTC was not until after WTC-2 collapse dust was already all over the place.

All the excerpts on the page
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/constructiondebris.htm
are from Church-Murray before 1st Collapse.

Church-Murray after 1st Collapse looked like a scene from the moon:
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/peopleindust.htm

Clip #1 shows more people to the right already looking up at the towers than in the bravenewworld2 footage. That footage with its dubbed-in sound is misleading. The people looking up are probably just checking on the building as it burns.

At least THREE people in the clip
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
SUDDENLY whirl their gaze around and/or up at the SAME TIME.


Ray Ubinger

 

[Regnad Kcin]

(I hold that neither Tower was hit by a plane.)

Oh.

I hadn't noticed this before. Yep, all the New Yorkers who saw this happen with their own eyes – thousands in the case of the first plane, hundreds of thousands in the case of the second plane – are wrong. The millions who saw the second strike live on TV have been deceived. Thousands of professional and amateur photos and videos have been expertly faked. All of the air traffic controllers are lying. All of the 767 debris and passenger remains was planted around lower Manhattan by an army of people who scampered out from hiding as soon as Ray's mystery objects struck. All of the phone calls were faked.

But Ray Ubinger knows the truth...

Conspiracy theorists are simply a wonder to behold.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Ray, I already admitted after posting that that there was probably too much dust for it to be filmed post any collapse. I did not contradict myself or Gedeon's statement that he was at the firehouse during 1st collapse, in that I was (most likely wrongly) assuming it could have been at the moment of the 2nd collapse.


I immediately posted a new theory:

Thanks, Gravy. In your photo, Gravy, I think Murray is one further street down. Compare with this map. (I've also been researching the buildings on the west side of Church St.)
Still, it looks like there was plenty more dust at 10:28am than I thought.

Testing another theory - that Gedeon hasn't lied about his whereabouts. If Gedeon filmed that bravenewworld footage, it would have been filmed after 8:46am (1st hit) and before 9:59am (WTC2 collapse), both times when he was back at the firehouse.

According to Ray's mob, Gedeon filmed the second hit (9:03am), seen in footage taken from the corner of Church & Vesey in front of 5 World Trade Center (3 corners down from Church & Murray).
So, did he have time to drive down there 7 short blocks before 9:03am? I think it's possible. (If not, there are plenty of explanations other than Ray's delusional theory.)
Did he then have time to travel two and a half short blocks, film while walking for a few moments, and then get back to the firehouse in time to see the first collapse live on tv, as he said? I think it's possible. (Again, if not, there's no reason to jump to daft conclusions.)

Ray, as you yourself posted, other footage/cameramen are listed in the credits. How you can make the leap from not knowing who filmed which excerpts to this is beyond me:

the Naudets POINTEDLY UNDERPLAYED the gruesomeness expectation, by having Jules testify how he consciously decided AGAINST filming the "burning" person(s?).

Jules says with tears in his eyes: "I just didn't want to film that. It was like, no one, no one should have to see this." MEANING, I think, 'No one BUT US [the filmmakers] should GET to see it!'

This moment garnered them praise, in reviews, because of their commendable non-sensationalist "self-restraint," their "auto-censorship."

BUT THE SICK INSIDE JOKE IS ON US: THE MOVIE WE ARE WATCHING IS A *SNUFF FILM*, MADE BY *EVIL MEN*, *KILLERS* WHO *MOCK* US BY *BASKING* IN THE *PRAISES* WHICH THEY *CON* OUT OF US!

It smells like they murdered the Staten Island FDNY Probie (Michael Gorumba) on 8/28.
It smells like they murdered the FDNY Chaplain (Mychal Judge) and the brother of Battalion Chief Joseph Pfeifer (Lt. Kevin Pfeifer) on 9/11.

It smells like they murdered all those office workers, in the Towers.

It JUST PLAIN SMELLS.
--Ray Ubinger

The nicest thing I can say to you is that I feel compelled to urge you to seek psychological help for your own good.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

If Gedeon filmed that bravenewworld footage, it would have been filmed after 8:46am (1st hit) and before 9:59am (WTC2 collapse), both times when he was back at the firehouse.

I would agree that the Naudet movie asserts that Gedeon was at the firehouse at 8:46. But the Naudet movie lies. But y'all are okay with that. But you would not be not okay with me lying.


According to Ray's mob, Gedeon filmed the second hit (9:03am), seen in footage taken from the corner of Church & Vesey in front of 5 World Trade Center (3 corners down from Church & Murray).[/QUOTE]
Thanks for reminding me it's three blocks from Vesey to Murray; recently I've been forgetting Barclay.

So, did he have time to drive down there 7 short blocks before 9:03am? I think it's possible.

You mean did he have time to WALK down there 7 blocks before 9:03? He specifically asserts that he WALKED from firehouse to WTC in response to the 1st Hit. Do you think that's possible?

Did he then have time to travel two and a half short blocks, film while walking for a few moments, and then get back to the firehouse in time to see the first collapse live on tv, as he said? I think it's possible.

You mean did he then have time to
walk all that distance,
PLUS
walk a detour one block west (to W. Broadway, AWAY from the 100 Duane St. firehouse to
the NE), in which he films the north ("exit") side of the recently hit South Tower,
AND
film the mystery debris,
plus film the gruff chase-away by the unmarked (CIA?) agent who just happened to be right there at the debris which also already had tape around it when Gedeon got there,
AND
film SEVERAL testimonials, like
the Smug Jamaican - 'It Was A Plane, It Was A Plane, We Saw It, It Was Two Planes'
the Well-Informed Indian - 'But What Will Those People Inside Do With All The Elevators Blocked?'
the Genuine Explosion Witness - 'It Went Boom, The Whole Building'
the Two Asians - 'One Plane On Tower One, Other On Tower Two' - one of whom Gedeon took the time to LAPEL-MICROPHONE-CLIP
the Bemused Middle-Aged Guy - 'This Is Like Something Out Of A Movie, It's Like The Towering Inferno'
AND then
get back to the firehouse in time to film (IN A SCENE LIT FROM BELOW?) the firehouse wall clock saying *9:30*, with Tony watching the TV next to the clock.

Do you think that's possible?


Ray Ubinger

 

[chillzero]

Ray, as you yourself posted, other footage/cameramen are listed in the credits. How you can make the leap from not knowing who filmed which excerpts to this is beyond me:

Jules says with tears in his eyes: "I just didn't want to film that. It was like, no one, no one should have to see this." MEANING, I think, 'No one BUT US [the filmmakers] should GET to see it!'

Ray,
You're an idiot. I totally agree with Jules Naudet saying that no one should have to see this. No one on this earth should ever have to witness an event like 9/11. No one should ever be in a situation to stand on a street and watch people throw themselves from a high building to save themselves from being suffocated or roasted. No one should have to see something like this happen and then realise that it was no accident; that someone somewhere made it happen.

Your arguments don't make much sense, and you argue back in little splintered bits that don't add up. I was not ignorant about the problems created by the dust. I was pointing out where you were making assumptions - such as the most obvious one that you still have not addressed. Was this road closed prior to the first hit? If not, then your whole argument is invalid. You keep arguing that clearly the road is closed in the clip. No one is disputing that, but it gives an indication as to when this clip may have been obtained. If the road was open as normal that day, until the first hit, then you are wrong, and you need to admit that this is a later piece, edited in.

I think to persist in ridiculous conspiracy theories, such as denial of the existence of the planes, is a huge insult to those who died, and their families who remain. This has been pointed out to you in a personal manner above, and your response was disgusting. People lost people that day, and a horrendous thing was visited on the population. People like you twist the knife of loss further, and confuse and distort the information grieving people need to be able to take in, to manage their grieving processes.

 

[Orphia Nay]

You mean did he have time to WALK down there 7 blocks before 9:03? He specifically asserts that he WALKED from firehouse to WTC in response to the 1st Hit. Do you think that's possible?

Yes. A few minutes with Mapquest and Google Maps shows it's (less than) 650metres. At a walking pace (though he could have hurried ) of 5kph it would take him 7 minutes 48 seconds. Do you think that's possible?

You mean did he then have time to
walk all that distance,
PLUS
walk a detour one block west (to W. Broadway, AWAY from the 100 Duane St. firehouse to
the NE), in which he films the north ("exit") side of the recently hit South Tower,
AND
film the mystery debris,
plus film the gruff chase-away by the unmarked (CIA?) agent who just happened to be right there at the debris which also already had tape around it when Gedeon got there,
AND
film SEVERAL testimonials, like
the Smug Jamaican - 'It Was A Plane, It Was A Plane, We Saw It, It Was Two Planes'
the Well-Informed Indian - 'But What Will Those People Inside Do With All The Elevators Blocked?'
the Genuine Explosion Witness - 'It Went Boom, The Whole Building'
the Two Asians - 'One Plane On Tower One, Other On Tower Two' - one of whom Gedeon took the time to LAPEL-MICROPHONE-CLIP
the Bemused Middle-Aged Guy - 'This Is Like Something Out Of A Movie, It's Like The Towering Inferno'
AND then
get back to the firehouse in time to film (IN A SCENE LIT FROM BELOW?) the firehouse wall clock saying *9:30*, with Tony watching the TV next to the clock.

Do you think that's possible?

Even taking a chance and assuming you're correct in saying Gedeon filmed those scenes, yes. 12 minutes to walk (an overestimate of) 1km leaves 15 minutes to film a total of what, 3 minutes total footage?

Do you admit that is possible?


In addition, where's the evidence of murder, Ray Ubinger?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

A few minutes with Mapquest and Google Maps shows it's (less than) 650metres. At a walking pace (though he could have hurried ) of 5kph it would take him 7 minutes 48 seconds. Do you think that's possible?

I do. Most north/south blocks in NYC are quite short. At a moderate pace you can stroll one in under 30 seconds. The east/west lengths are considerably longer. Walking time by way of that direction? I can't recall with enough certainty, so I won't hazard an estimate.

But this is all beside the point. Reverse-engineering can be done with most any event to "prove" other events led up to it. Doesn't mean there is direct cause in the first place. But that doesn't stop conspiracy theorists from their flights of Sherlockian fancy, more's the pity.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

So why does Gedeon, after filming the 2nd Hit[,]
walk back to the firehouse and film rookie Tony manning the phone and watching TV?

(if, that is, the Naudets' focus had supposedly changed into being a documentary about a historic incident instead of a documentary about a rookie fireman)

The fire crews from Tony's station were not at the station, they were out on the street.

ALL of them? You're saying the whole firehouse worth of men (and vehicles?) responded to the allegedly no-big-deal, Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas, leaving the firehouse empty at 8:30 except for Gedeon Naudet? I say Joseph Pfeifer and Dennis Tardio are the ONLY members of Tony's firehouse who actually appear in the Odor of Gas (Church-Lispenard) footage.

They [the fire crews from Tony's station], in fact, called in the fire to dispatch, on the way down to the WTC. Why, exactly, would dispatch sound an alarm in a fire house, if they already knew the engines from that firehouse were on route?

Why would the whole firehouse worth of men and vehicles have been at the allegedly no-big-deal, Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas?

Secondly, Tony wasn't there that morning. He came in later - hence why he missed the gas leak.

To the contrary, Tony is shown as one of the guys coming in on the 8:00 a.m. work shift.

Gideon

Gedeon

couldn't get to the WTC because the police sealed the area off.

Sealing off WTC, besides being probably impossible in that short a time, would have prevented tens of thousands of people from escaping. Here you got misdirected by deceptive editing/narration. What we're actually shown at the time in question, shortly post-2nd-Hit, is someone in CIVILIAN clothes shooing Gedeon away from the DEBRIS at CHURCH-MURRAY. I mean the large black man seen in two vids and one still at
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/bigjunk.htm
That sealed-off DEBRIS was SEVERAL BLOCKS from WTC. Then the narration deceptively asserts that 'that was as close as Gedeon would get to the World Trade Center without a fireman.'

In another documentary, by the way, it looks like Gedeon (by facial resemblance and by filming at a known Gedeon time and place) was actually WEARING AN FDNY UNIFORM:
http://tinyurl.com/jjsd2

Their alleged subject, the alleged rookie Tony Benetatos, was not on that [Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas] call, he stayed back at the firehouse.

Negative. Tony wasn't there at all. When Gedeon got back to the fire house Tony told him that when he arrived no one was there.

Baloney! Tony does not say that, to anyone. You're making it up. The closest you'll find is the scene partly excerpted at
http://911foreknowledge.com/tony/tonycalls.htm
wherein the narration says Gedeon was WITH Tony at 8:46 AND that Tony in turn was "STILL at the firehouse."

He [Tony] came in LATE (it was never explained if he was scheduled to come in later or if he just missed his bus or whatever).

Tony is depicted as one of the guys coming in on the 8:00 a.m. shift. He opens or closes some compartment on a fire vehicle.

why did Gedeon say he WALKED from firehouse to WTC at 8:46? He caught rides on the firetrucks for all the previous dispatches that he filmed. Didn't any firemen drive from the 100 Duane Street firehouse (where Gedeon allegedly was at 8:46) to the WTC, at 8:46?

No. Because the firemen were attending a gas leak.

All thirteen of them? But only two managed to show up in the footage? And Jules Naudet thought Gedeon Naudet was with Jules at the alleged odor of alleged gas too? But also we're being told Gedeon SENT Jules there, to get camera practice?


Ray Ubinger

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Mr. Ubinger:

Questions are not evidence.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

RK

 

[WildCat]

Why would the whole firehouse worth of men and vehicles have been at the allegedly no-big-deal, Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas?

Perhaps you missed the news:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/am-collapse0710,0,1623755.story?track=mostviewed-homepage
Gas leaks are hardly something to show little concern over.

 

[gumboot]

ALL of them? You're saying the whole firehouse worth of men (and vehicles?) responded to the allegedly no-big-deal, Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas, leaving the firehouse empty at 8:30 except for Gedeon Naudet?

Yes, I am. In the footage we see two fire trucks (assumably engine 7 and ladder 1), the fire chief's vehicle, and an ambulance at the gas leak. Why do you claim it is no big deal? Gas leaks are never "no-big-deal". Yes, the firemen said it was "just another call" because it was. They are talking in the context of what came after.

I say Joseph Pfeifer and Dennis Tardio are the ONLY members of Tony's firehouse who actually appear in the Odor of Gas (Church-Lispenard) footage.

Indeed. There's two people in the chief's vehicle. So who drove the other two fire engines (one of which we see video of it leaving the station directly ahead of the chief)? There are multiple firemen in that scene. There are single shots with ATLEAST 4 firemen. Where did they come from?

Why would the whole firehouse worth of men and vehicles have been at the allegedly no-big-deal, Alleged Odor of Alleged Gas?

What do you think a "whole firehouse worth of men and vehicles" consists of? They had one fire engine, and one ladder, as well as the chief's vehicle. We see all three of these at the gas leak. It is standard practise in the event of a call out for the entire station to go. Only 13 men are on duty. Subtracting the two in the chief's vehicle, that's 11 men between two engines (say, 6 for the ladder and 5 for the engine?). Again, since when is a gas leak "no-big-deal"?

To the contrary, Tony is shown as one of the guys coming in on the 8:00 a.m. work shift.

He is not. No one is specifically shown (we see arms and a shirt making breakfast, no faces). however what the doco DOES show (later) is the following: (my bolding)

NARRATOR: It turns out Gideon was with Tony
Phone Rings
TONY (on phone): Engine Seven, Ladder One. (Pause) This is firefighter Benatanos...
NARRATOR: But Tony was still at the firehouse
TONY (on phone): Yes (pause) no, I was off-duty
NARRATOR: And now he'd been ordered to stay there.
TONY (on phone): Everybody's been recalled. All available units must come back to the firehouse.
NARRATOR: While Tony tried to keep up with the phones...
TONY (on phone): This is firefighter Benatanos
NARRATOR (cont'd): Gideo took his camera and started walking.

Sealing off WTC, besides being probably impossible in that short a time, would have prevented tens of thousands of people from escaping. Here you got misdirected by deceptive editing/narration. What we're actually shown at the time in question, shortly post-2nd-Hit, is someone in CIVILIAN clothes shooing Gedeon away from the DEBRIS at CHURCH-MURRAY.

You are being dishonest. What we are ACTUALLY shown in that scene is police officers, the black man in civilian clothing (with some form of official ID around his neck that looks like a police badge), and people in blue jackets with "FBI" on the back. IMMEDIATELY after this we see people pushing everyone back and putting up red tape, telling everyone to get back.

This is what I was referring to when I said they "sealed off the whole area". I never said they sealed off "the WTC" and I never suggested they prevented people leaving. You are dishonestly misrepresenting me.

Then the narration deceptively asserts that 'that was as close as Gedeon would get to the World Trade Center without a fireman.'

What is deceptive about this statement?

-Andrew

 

[Ray Ubinger]

It's a good thing for the Naudets that S11 came along and made their documentary sellable.

It's a good thing for you that the 9/11 conspiracy bandwagon came along so you could really get vituperous about the government that allegedly stole your votes.

There's nothing alleged about the Durham County Board of Elections' refusal to count my vote. Ask them, at 919-560-0700, they'll admit it, because N.C. General Statute 163-123(f) tells them to throw my vote away, despite that my vote is cast by a legally registered voter (me) and is cast for a constitutionally eligible person (sometimes me, sometimes someone else).

Just how else besides open vote-trashing do you explain that a dozen incumbents in my county alone are on record as having achieved UNANIMOUS victories, like Saddam in 2002?

The goalpost of the finished product changed with the attack. IT was no longer the story of a firefighter, but of the worst terror attack to be recorded in modern times. As such what happens back at the relative safety of the firehouse is of no interest. What happens out on the street is.

So why does Gedeon, after filming the 2nd Hit
http://www.911hoax.com/gNaudetWTC1_9...=46&PageNum=46
http://911foreknowledge.com/n2hit.htm
walk back to the firehouse and film rookie Tony manning the phone
http://911foreknowledge.com/tony/tonycalls.htm
and watching TV
http://911foreknowledge.com/tony/clocks.htm
?

[/QUOTE=orhpia nay]Because that was footage they had. Mixed with audio footage they had. With perhaps worse continuity than they could have had.[/QUOTE]

My question was,
Why was such banal footage so important for Gedeon to obtain in the first place, that he left the site of "the worst terrorist attack to be recorded in modern times?" Had "the goalpost of the finished product changed with the attack?"--changed, from dull rookie story to Witnessing History--or hadn't it? If it had, then why after the 2nd Hit was Gedeon still bothering with getting even more footage of Tony Not Firefighting?

Exactly where/what/when does he say he walked to the WTC just after 8:46am?

He says, at exactly 0:33:09 on the dvd clock, that he slowly walked there then.

"I remember, uh, slowly walking down to the World Trade Center. What really sticks in my mind is passing by people, filming them and filming their astonishment. And the eyes, saying, 'This isn't happening.' "

Ten or fifteen seconds of such footage later, comes his footage of the 2nd Hit.


Ray Ubinger

 

[gumboot]

My question was,
Why was such banal footage so important for Gedeon to obtain in the first place, that he left the site of "the worst terrorist attack to be recorded in modern times?"

Ray, this has already been explained to you. He couldn't get any closer to the WTC on his own, because officials taped off the area and sent everyone back (no doubt this is why almost all of the fatalities at the WTC were people INSIDE the buildings - because the area had been evacuated).

He states himself that he didn't know what to do, so he went back to the firehouse.

This is a natural thing to do. After months of filming, it must have felt like a second home. At the firehouse would be other firemen, and maybe some way of communicating with his brother. Once at the firehouse he might be able to find a fireman who can take him to his brother.

Where he was, he was just a guy all alone on the street with a camera.

And bear in mind it is clear that the brothers made no conscious decision to "change the focus of their documentary" at this time. They were simply going with what was happening. Much of the time they were just surviving. They often weren't even looking at what they were filming.

You make it sound like they suddenly went "hey, screw the rookie, this will make a GREAT documentary... let's film this instead". It is very clear that while the events were unfolding they spared very little consideration for their documentary whatsoever.

-Andrew

 

[CptColumbo]

So basically you're accusing them of being documentary filmakers?

Getting footage in the midst of chaos is what photo-journalists do. I used to be one in the late 80's-early 90's . I never had to deal with anything of this magnitude, but have been on the scene of accidents.

BTW when I was working the equipment needed was very heavy, so I always ended up walking slowly. They were probably walking slowly so they didn't shake the camera too much. Watch The Blair Witch Project to see what running with a camera does.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

WHOEVER shot
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
it is EXCLUSIVE to the Naudet film, appearing nowhere else, and I stand by my argument that it shows pedestrian reaction within sight of WTC (at Church-Murray) at the instant of the first hit.

The reactions do not even remotely reflect the sudden shock of an explosion in the sky above them.

I stand by my argument against that interpretation. In maybe only half a second of real time (stretched by the Naudets to about 4 seconds in slow motion), at least three pedestrians (out of maybe nine pedestrians visible) simultaneously go from walking along casually, to suddenly whirling their gaze up or around. Gray T-Shirt Guy, Briefcase Guy, and Backpack Person aka Possible Condi Rice lookalike.

They are people walking along, casually gazing up at something that they can't believe they are seeing - the WTC on fire.

Their change of attention is sudden, not casual. All three reacting pedestrians whirl their gazes within a second, maybe half a second, of one another. All three of them do so in mid-stride. And the look on Briefcase Guy's face is one of discernible surprise, though maybe you can't discern it without viewing the actual dvd, on a TV screen.

Also, a snippet of undisputed post-1st-Hit footage from that very same place (to within 10 or 20 feet) shows how much more crowded the street really was after the 1st Hit (nearby buildings emptying in curiosity):
http://911foreknowledge.com/debris/location4.htm
This location4 clip is of a qualitatively different crowd compared to how folks looked at 8:46 in the bravenewworld clip. Location4 shows that people were simply not walking along casually anymore after the 1st Hit. To the contrary, practically everyone is standing still, staring up, dumbstruck. In Gedeon's own words, "What sticks in my mind is ... astonishment ... and the eyes, saying, 'This isn't happening. " Very much like locations1, 2, and 3 (farther up Church St., I think) as well. Very much UNlike the START of the bravenewworld clip.


Ray Ubinger

Edited to change the end of my last sentence, which I initially posted as, "... UNlike the First Moment of a Brave New World." I would define that Moment as the TRANSITION, FROM the casual walking at the start of the bravenewworld clip, TO the sudden reaction to the 1st Hit.

 

[Ray Ubinger]

Flipping a shot to avoid a jump cut, or make screen direction is fine - (see the funeral tangent) you are not altering the facts, just making the transition - its not like flipping a shot of plane 2 and its direction of travel so as to represent it as plane 1.

Except it [really] is like that[,] in the case of the Gorumba funeral scene, because if you un-mirror-image the shot, the truck would be driving the wrong way.
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/tonysore.htm

My explanation is that the truck really was driving the wrong way, and not because the real funeral had a drunk truck driver, but because they ACCIDENTALLY filmed that truck driving the wrong way at the FAKE version of the funeral. I submit that the shots of "the" funeral that have Tony in them, were not shot at the real funeral.
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/crowd.htm

They might not have been able to get a closeup of Tony at the funeral, so they might have used one from elsewhere.

A closeup of Tony at some OTHER large formation of SALUTING firemen IN DRESS UNIFORM *and* a big passing truck? Is that what you're postulating? Some formal large outdoor firefighter occasion which included Tony and which resembled the Gorumba funeral, yet which the Naudets COMPLETELY DROPPED FROM THE NARRATIVE, using the occasion ONLY for its footage which was able to give a FALSE impression (formation's front row) of how Tony was situated at the Gorumba funeral, IF he really was there?

And instead of simply omitting the one brief snippet with the truck passing Tony (in the opposite-to-funeral-procession direction), they went to the trouble to mirror-image it, so we'd be extra-fooled into thinking the closeups of Tony were really taken at the funeral? You're saying they not only depicted non-funeral footage as being funeral footage, but they also ALTERED it first? A lie on TOP of a lie, plus other documented instances of the Naudets altering their own raw footage (like Tony's TV-watching moment and like the Naudet 2nd Hit)--and all it gets from you is a "big deal," because it's from the revered Naudets? But if I lied even once, you'd be all on my case about it, would you not?


Ray Ubinger

 

[60hzxtl]

And instead of simply omitting the one brief snippet with the truck passing Tony (in the opposite-to-funeral-procession direction), they went to the trouble to mirror-image it, so we'd be extra-fooled into thinking the closeups of Tony were really taken at the funeral? You're saying they not only depicted non-funeral footage as being funeral footage, but they also ALTERED it first? A lie on TOP of a lie, plus other documented instances of the Naudets altering their own raw footage (like Tony's TV-watching moment and like the Naudet 2nd Hit)--and all it gets from you is a "big deal," because it's from the revered Naudets? But if I lied even once, you'd be all on my case about it, would you not?


Ray Ubinger

ding-a- ling a- ling- Ray's Here!

Look up in the sky! Its birds, its clouds its a huge hunkin' hypo needle!

ding-a- ling a- ling!

 

[gumboot]

I stand by my argument against that interpretation. In maybe only half a second of real time (stretched by the Naudets to about 4 seconds in slow motion), at least three pedestrians (out of maybe nine pedestrians visible) simultaneously go from walking along casually, to suddenly whirling their gaze up or around. Gray T-Shirt Guy, Briefcase Guy, and Backpack Person aka Possible Condi Rice lookalike.

Ray, you're just... wrong. It is at half speed, at absolute slowest. They shot on video. When you make slow motion with video you have to do it in post-production, and the editing software does it by duplicating frames. Even at half speed (showing every single frame twice) the footage has a distinct stutter to it. At 1/8 speed, as you are claiming the software would show every frame EIGHT TIMES. This would feel INCREDIBLY unnatural to anyone watching. The footage we see has a relatively fluid motion to it still, meaning, AT MOST it is half speed (more likely something like 2/3).

We see confirmed footage of the second hit, in a similar situation. The reaction of onlookers to the second hit is MUCH more pronounced than to your claimed first hit.

Look Ray, video interpretation is a difficult art. The only really effective way of learning it is by having shot a LOT of footage yourself and then seen that footage many times. You begin to learn how things look, and what the tell-tale signs are of misleading imagery. Do not be concerned that you are misinterpreting video, you cannot be expected to be effective without experience.

-Andrew