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Leslie Raphael's (Public) Conveniences

Wow... that's amazing. Insanity knows no bounds.

Being a professional filmmaker myself... you are pretty unprofessional if you spend time making a documentary and you don't have tape in the camera, don't have lots of battery life, and aren't ready to record whatever crazy thing might happen. Documentary camera operators practically have their cameras grafted to their hands, to make sure they're always available.

Statistically... if the chance of someone capturing the hit was 1 million to 1, how many million people are in New York, and therefore how many people would have captured the hit?

-Andrew
 
Gedeon Naudet's camera at Church & Murray at 8:46

Gravy writes:

> [T]he clips are very brief

I agree they're not long, but they are excerpted in their entirety, and they're long and detailed enough to substantiate what I'm saying. The first shows pedestrian reaction at the instant of the 1st Hit, but it stop short of tilting up to show us the immediate 1st Hit impact aftermath. The second shows the impact aftermath a moment or some moments later, from the same place.

ophia nay was saying it would be suspicious if someone were filming within sight at the impact moment and didn't show us. I'm agreeing with that and arguing that that's exactly what Gedeon Naudet did on the east side of Church St. between Park Pl. and Murray St.

> and out of context.

The reaction shot is shown in more context at
h t t p : / /
911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld2.htm

which actually illustrates by the Naudets' OWN PLACEMENT of it (in the sequence of the sorta 'terror preview' montage near the start of their film), that it is footage of reaction at the instant the attacks began.


(
> If it shows the reaction to the first plane roaring overhead and hitting,

Not to get sidetracked, but I don't see a plane in the 1st Hit footage:
thewebfairy.com/911/flyingpig/flashframe.jpg
missilegate.com
)


> why isn't everyone reacting?

Okay this is back on the topic I brought up. My answer is that the film simply stops short of everyone else's reactions, after showing only the first three reacting people's first reflexive jolt of reaction.

It's just like the first HALF SECOND of reaction, stretched out to 3 or 4 seconds by slow motion. Everyone else is certainly about to react, but the three people reacting in the very first half second are all we're shown.

You do apparently concede that it starts with nobody looking up AND THEN shows some people looking up. That is precisely how I originally figured out that it is footage of pedestrian reaction at the instant of the 1st Hit. That instant was precisely when people were walking along normally and then suddenly whirled their gaze up.

> Church & Murray is only TWO BLOCKS from the WTC, as opposed to where Jules Naudet was, 14 blocks away.

So?

> Why do you say that the sound we hear is the first plane hitting?

Why do you say that I say that?

> Does that sound even belong to the clip?

No, now that you bring it up. Slow-motioning a clip typically leaves the sound off. The sound is synthetic, added for dramatic purposes, and irrelevant to my argument.

> I don't have the Naudet film

Your nearest library does. It can also be watched at
thewebfairy.com/911/popcorn
then click
911 Televised Version.

> If the Naudets said that only one of them was at the scene, and both turned out to be there, it would show that they and the fire squad lied about that. If you find evidence of that, I'd certainly be interested to see it.

I've already posted the link to the footage establishing that they had to have had a second camera running at the instant of the 1st Hit, eleven blocks closer to WTC than Jules but on the same street as Jules.

The bit of narration about how the other brother (Gedeon) was still back at the firehouse at that moment, is I think at the start of dvd chapter 5. It is the whole basis of the major Separation Anxiety subplot that they scripted, wherein each brother thinks the other dead.


Ray Ubinger
 
Two Naudet-FDNY cameras at 8:46, three when you count Pavel

orphia nay writes:

> Is it just me, or is anyone else wondering, IF the Naudets were 'in on a cover-up',

Which I argue they were, and which you haven't disputed my evidence or logic about.

> why wasn't Gédéon filming back-up footage of the impact, instead of supposedly filming the backs of a few people (when Jules was lucky to capture the impact at all)?

I think that's what you would call a fallacious "argument from incredulity." I would say they put one cam on the impact and another on our the victims' initial reaction simply because they wanted shots of both the impact and of our the victims' initial reaction. The Naudets were snuff film makers posing as respectable documentarians. I think they're in hiding now.

BY THE WAY, the Naudet-FDNY team DID shoot backup footage of the 1st Hit collision:

thewebfairy.com/911/pavel


Ray Ubinger
 
Andrew writes:

> Being a professional filmmaker myself...

Please be specific.

> you are pretty unprofessional if you spend time making a documentary and you don't have tape in the camera, don't have lots of battery life, and aren't ready to record whatever crazy thing might happen.

Yeah they had so much battery life that their lawyers' letter to Dylan Avery said they had 140 hours of footage from that one day!

It's not just that Jules Naudet was in the right place at the right time in the right way, it's that he was in the PERFECT place at the PERFECT time in the PERFECT way. He had traffic blocked around him, he already had his camera running BUT didn't have anything ELSE to film, he was in shade with the murder weapon in full sun, and he caught the instant of approx. 450mph impact in the middle of his lens view even though the murder weapon is only actually on camera for about one second - like throwing a bullseye dart with his camera aim.


> Documentary camera operators practically have their cameras grafted to their hands, to make sure they're always available.

So why is there no footage from Gedeon allegedly back at the firehouse at 8:46? Wasn't that a newsworthy moment? I say the narration lies; that he was at Church & Murray, filming
911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
(just like he shot all the ADMITTED Church St. footage from LATER in the movie)
instead of still being back at the firehouse.

> Statistically... if the chance of someone capturing the hit was 1 million to 1, how many million people are in New York, and therefore how many people would have captured the hit?

However many people did. So far we know of three videocams running in NYC at 8:46 on 9/11, and all three of them were being used by Naudet-FDNY team.


Ray Ubinger
 
Foreknowledge allows special preparedness

The Fire writes:

> Personally, I always have an extra tape and fully charged battery in my pockets when I'm on a shoot. Even if I'm not the cameraperson. You know, just to be on the safe side.

Yeah, after all, you just never know--unless of course you're part of a plot--when history might change in an instant right in the middle of your lens view precisely when when you're done filming something else but your camera just happens to still be running.

It's also a good idea to have a brother shooting auxiliary footage 11 blocks away from you at all times, but lie about it by saying he's somewhere else instead. Just to be on the safe side.


Ray Ubinger
 
It's also a good idea to have a brother shooting auxiliary footage 11 blocks away from you at all times, but lie about it by saying he's somewhere else instead. Just to be on the safe side.


Ray Ubinger
But the brother doesn't show the plane hitting, nor the damage afterwards? Some backup that is!

Seems to me this is just footage from another day used to make the point that "nobody expected Sept.11". Quite common in a docmentary.

And Ray, try using the "quote" button when replying, it will make your posts much easier to read.
 
The Fire writes:

> Personally, I always have an extra tape and fully charged battery in my pockets when I'm on a shoot. Even if I'm not the cameraperson. You know, just to be on the safe side.

Yeah, after all, you just never know--unless of course you're part of a plot--when history might change in an instant right in the middle of your lens view precisely when when you're done filming something else but your camera just happens to still be running.

It's also a good idea to have a brother shooting auxiliary footage 11 blocks away from you at all times, but lie about it by saying he's somewhere else instead. Just to be on the safe side.


Ray Ubinger
Before you get your panties in a twist, the reason why documentarists and many newscrews are carrying extra batteries and tapes are the fact that interviews/shoots sometimes exceeds the expected timeframes ESPECIALLY when doing a running documentary of a workday.

ETA: Also read wildcats answer.
 
A reconstruction would be dishonest enough, but this is worse

WildCat writes:

> But the brother doesn't show the plane hitting, nor the damage afterwards?

Apparently his assignment was specifically to film the initial pedestrian reaction. Our the victims' first wince of fear and pain. The only known footage of pedestrian reaction at the INSTANT of the FIRST Hit. The clip is cut short before the cameraman presumably tilted up to film the immediate aftermath of the impact.

> Some backup that is!

It's obvious why they deliberately cut it short. So they wouldn't have to invent ANOTHER cover story, to explain why they had ANOTHER camera filming within sight of WTC at 8:46.


reminders:

famous 1st Hit IMPACT footage was shot by JULES Naudet at Church & LISPENARD

obscure 1st Hit PEDESTRIAN REACTION footage was shot by GEDEON Naudet at Church & MURRAY. eleven blocks closer to WTC on the SAME STREET, by the very BROTHER of the cameraman of the FAMOUS 1st Hit impact footage - an amazing coincidence that they were even on the same street (much less both filming), since they were 11 blocks apart and apparently didn't have cell phones (or else the whole Separation Anxiety subplot could never get off the ground)


> Seems to me this is just footage from another day used to make the point that "nobody expected Sept.11". Quite common in a docmentary.

Using ACTORS in STAGED RE-ENACTMENTS without TELLING us they're re-enactments, is a common DOCUMENTARY practice? Is that what you mean? Well, such hypothetical deception would still not explain how they got the same part of the same street to look just like it did around 9:15, when more footage of it appears.
tinyurl.com/dvxft
(a comparison pair of screenshots by Marcus Icke taken directly from the Naudet dvd)

note several matching TEMPORARY background details like

construction rubble on ground in middle of street, including individually matchabe rubble pieces

yellow caution tape tied to trash can in middle of street

contruction scaffolding on sidewalk, marked by blue top, interrupted by white sign

busy street blocked

In short, too many matching TEMPORARY background details, matching to KNOWN footage from that same spot on that same day, to have even been a re-construction. (That said, even a re-construction, WITHOUT TELLING US, would at least be dishonest filmmaking.)


> And Ray, try using the "quote" button when replying, it will make your posts much easier to read.

I tried that, but when I do it that way I can't figure out how to trim the original down to just what I want to reply to.


Ray Ubinger
 
I tried that, but when I do it that way I can't figure out how to trim the original down to just what I want to reply to.


Ray Ubinger

Highlight text you don't want, and press the Delete key on your keyboard. The Backspace key works as well.
 
Ray, again, what makes you think that the clip shows the reaction to the first plane hitting? Remember, these people are two blocks away. The two women in the foreground don't even flinch involuntarily from the plane supposedly roaring overhead and exploding. Not likely.

You didn't answer my question: do you know if the audio is original to the clip? We've seen a recent instance of fake audio being added to a tape of the south tower collapse.

Where are the cars, trucks and buses? Church street at 8:46 a.m. on a weekday is one of the busiest places in Manhattan. It is HAMMERED with traffic, including hundreds of buses.* Traffic runs in the direction the cameraman is walking, north. It would be virtually impossible to take that shot on a normal day and not see vehicles. Instead, we see NO vehicles, and a lot of people walking in the street. Those conditions just don't happen unless the road is blocked off. Do you have evidence that Church Street was blocked off for some reason?

There is debris on the street. It's not construction debris. Construction workers don't just throw debris onto one of the busiest streets in New York. Someone appears to have a placed a trash can in the street as a warning or a marker. Again, not something you'd see on a normal day.

So, very little – and inconsistent – reaction, no vehicles, people in the street, debris in the street.

Unless you've got something else, your "evidence" is unconvincing, to say the least.

*ETA: Church Street is hammered with traffic today, with no WTC there. It was worse in 2001.
 
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http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
This 3-4-second segment runs from 2:14 to 2:18 on the DVD clock.
Source DVD? What is filmed immediately prior and immediately after? Evidence this is Naudet footage?

It seems unassuming at first. They don't call attention to it.
Assuming it is Naudet footage, for the sake of argument, if it was taken on that day it has relevence, but unless they had/have an agenda there is no reason for them to call attention to any specific part of their footage from that day.

And the specific location is unknown.
It should be knowable. Any resident NYCers recognize the street and/or buildings?

But when you examine it, it turns out to
be:

the only known footage of pedestrian reaction to FIRST hit at the INSTANT the first hit happened.
Examination of only this footage can not lead to this conclusion. Evidence you, or someone, has examined all available footage from that day and verified that this is the earliest (chronologically speaking).

This proves the Naudets had foreknowledge -- the foreknowledge required
to have had a second camera up and running at 8:46 a.m., AWAITING the
initial crowd reaction to the event which was ABOUT TO occur.
The only thing this proves is, if this is Naudet footage, that they had a camera filming that location, at that time. It does not establish motive, or foreknowledge.

The first camera that they had running at 8:46 a.m., the one we all
know about, was Jules' camera at the gas leak (Church & Lispenard
intersection). So this second camera was evidently operated by Gedeon.
Evidence? You can not assume that Gedeon was operating the camera for this footage.

In further support of this, note that the movie shows no 8:46 a.m.
footage from the firehouse, where the movie claims Gedeon was at
8:46 a.m. That was a huge moment, a multi-alarm call for almost everyone
who was still at the firehouse to get the heck over to the WTC. Gedeon
should have found that firehouse moment interesting enough to film, if he
had really been at the firehouse at 8:46 a.m.. But we see now that he
simply wasn't in the firehouse at that moment. We see now that at
8:46 a.m., Gedeon was out on some sidewalk getting this shot instead.
Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. Do any of the firemen from that firehouse claim he was not there at, or around 8:46 AM?

Note that this shot is inserted right AFTER the fireman looks skyward at
the odor-of-gas call, which, we learn later (in the fuller version of the
odor-of-gas scene), is when the first hit was happening. And, this shot
is inserted right BEFORE some OTHER shots of crowd reactions to
the hits. Therefore by context alone, this is a shot of pedestrian
reaction to one of the hits.
Editing does not necessarily keep chronological order of footage. The point of editing is to make it watchable/convey information/contiuity/flow/etc

But, this shot STARTS with NOBODY looking up. Therefore it is NOT a shot
of reaction to the SECOND hit. By the time the second hit was about
to happen, practically EVERYONE was STANDING STILL and STARING UP.

There was only one time on that day when people were walking along
normally and then all of a sudden a wave of them whirled to look up.
That time was 8:46 a.m.
Again, editing does not always retain chronological order. You need to provide evidence that this is not just a result of the editing floor.

I count at least three people suddenly whirling their gaze around and/or up:

1. white man in left foreground in gray T shirt and dark shorts; trying
to figure out exactly where to look up at.
You are assigning more information than you can possibly know. All you can claim here is "white man in left foreground in gray T shirt and dark shorts looking up and moving his head"

2. white man in dark business suit carrying briefcase in left hand;
though blurry, you can see his jaw starts to drop open on his very
concerned-looking face.
Unless you can see something on the DVD that is not visible in the stills/flash on your site I do not see how you can claim to make out the expression on the man's face.

3. thin black woman in middle/background (somewhat blurry, possible
Condi Rice lookalike)
Trying to poison the well?
, with long sleeved medium blue shirt and wearing
a backpack. She was walking basically away from the camera, but before
the clip is over we see her whirling around leftward, basically toward
the camera, pivoting on the balls of her feet in mid-stride.

In summary, I repeat that this unassuming little 3-4-second snippet is a
shot of FIRST-hit reaction at the INSTANT the first hit happened -- and
the existence of such footage PROVES FOREKNOWLEDGE on the part of
the moviemakers.
You have provided no evidence showing the Naudets had knowledge that the events were going to happen, when they would happen, where they would happen, or where to set up specifically to film them.
 
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Andrew writes:

> Being a professional filmmaker myself...

Please be specific.



I have been working in the film industry in New Zealand for six years, including working on feature films, television, documentaries, short films, music videos, telefeatures... and so forth.

I've worked with a multitude of video formats, 8mm film, 16mm film, and 35mm film.

I've worked in the following departments:
Art Department
Production
AD Department
Camera
Lighting/Electrics
Cast
Unit
Creative (Producer/Director/Writer)
Sound
Post-Production

Yeah they had so much battery life that their lawyers' letter to Dylan Avery said they had 140 hours of footage from that one day!

140 hours for one day? Or 140 hours for the entire documentary? Because some of their footage was pretty clearly recorded post 9/11.

-Andrew
 
Having looked at the sellections of footage, I'm not even convinced they were taken on the same day, let alone the same time of day. The lighting and shadow levels vary greatly, and the white balance in some is way off, with a distinct blue hue. This is a tell tale sign that it's at a different time of day.

The shot that "looks up to the towers just after the plane hit" is quite clearly looking up well after a plane hit, judging by the extent and colour of the smoke. Whatever's burning, I can't even be sure its either of the Twin Towers... the grey smoke makes me want to suggest its WTC7 burning some time in the afternoon.

As for the first WS of the street with the rubble on the road, yellow tape, and zero traffic (in rush hour??? right). It should be fairly easy for a local to identify the location and direction of the shot.

From that we can calculate if the directions for the WTC and the time of day match.

-Andrew
 
gumboot: Nice. I never had the pleasure/frustration of working with cells. Me, that's only various videoformats.
BTW: have you tried the Ikegami backparts? Those rocks. That is if you get the correct fronends. Otherwise they are as out of balance as a CT in an evidence based discussion.
 
Having looked at the sellections of footage, I'm not even convinced they were taken on the same day, let alone the same time of day. The lighting and shadow levels vary greatly, and the white balance in some is way off, with a distinct blue hue. This is a tell tale sign that it's at a different time of day.

The shot that "looks up to the towers just after the plane hit" is quite clearly looking up well after a plane hit, judging by the extent and colour of the smoke. Whatever's burning, I can't even be sure its either of the Twin Towers... the grey smoke makes me want to suggest its WTC7 burning some time in the afternoon.

As for the first WS of the street with the rubble on the road, yellow tape, and zero traffic (in rush hour??? right). It should be fairly easy for a local to identify the location and direction of the shot.

From that we can calculate if the directions for the WTC and the time of day match.

-Andrew
That would be the way of going about it, AFAIK: Shoot cover-shots over several days to accentuate the story and to cover the sound editing/voiceovers. Nothing new or extraordinary there. And no, it's not obfuscation.
What people tend to forget is that the Naudet's weren't there specificly to shoot 9/11 but a story about a rookie at a firestation. I have no idea on how they were spinning the original story, but I would personally send a camera man out to get various shot of the city/area the story takes place in for the already mentioned reasons (accentuating/cover shots).
It's also not uncommon to have more than one cameraman on this sort of project, particulary when dealing with an as unpreditable line of work as firefighters, since one just never know when the "golden" shot happens.

ETA: Some of my response only made it to my brain.
 
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Fire:

Can't say I've actually ever come across Ikegami. We have a fairly low range of video camera brands here - almost exclusively Sony and Panasonic at the professional end.

I know what you mean about balance! We did a cheapy shoot with some Sony DVCAMs and it was fine with the three-battery pack on it, but one battery? Hopeless.

-Andrew
 
Still confused about quote-in-reply

Highlight text you don't want, and press the Delete key on your keyboard. The Backspace key works as well.

Okay I'm trying "Quote" again, instead of "quick reply", and I agree I can now trim down what YOU wrote, but, the part you yourself were responding to (where I said I was confused about quote-in-reply) has disappeared completely.

Thanks for trying to help me. I'm trying to apply what you're suggesting, it just still doesn't work for me as cleanly and completely as quick-reply.


Ray Ubinger
 
The reason that quotes within quotes doesn't appear is to minimise the amount of posts where the quotes together take up far more place than the reply. Imagine if a quoted exchange went on for ten posts and both parts were too lazy to delete the previously quoted posts... I'm very glad I don't have to wade through a lot of that. (And yes, a lot of posters are that lazy.)

Anyway, you can also just use [ quote ] and [ /quote ] (without the spaces to create a quote tag. Once you get used to writing it, it won't take any time at all to put in.

EDIT: My first paragraph is rather confusing, so I'll try and provide an example of a good, clean argument where quoting inside posts aren't taken away:

Yes, it is!
No it isn't!
Yes, it is!
No it isn't!
Yes, it is!
No it isn't!
Yes, it is!
No it isn't!
Yes, it is!
No it isn't!

You can see why one would like to avoid this happening, right?
 
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