Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

[The Don]

Wow. That was a whole lot of stuff I neither said nor implied.

It's a combination from a lot of posters who have pointed out that in modern America the stigma associated with being a sex worker is no worse than that of being a burger flipper or waste operative. You added the additional data point that being an atheist or a member of a comparatively fringe religion is a similar barrier.


edited to add...

I'm very happy about this because I'm all for the legalisation of prostitution and was only concerned about people who would be coerced into it through necessity. I can now see that I need not worry because it doesn't carry anything like the stigma I had thought and feared it did.

 

[Dissolution]

Then I'm out of my depth and I apologise I lack the knowledge to discuss the matter from an informed position.

Now there's a sentence that isn't used often enough in certain areas of this forum!

 

[kerikiwi]

I can envisage ex-burger flippers being elected to public office in any of the 50 states, not so much ex-prostitutes.

Do you have trouble envisioning a black person being president?
Just because a social stigma exists doesn't make it right. Because there may be a stigma about being a prostitute is no reason to make prostitution illegal.

And in NZ we have had an ex-prostitute elected to parliament.

 

[Dissolution]

Surely taking money for screwing people is good practice for being a politician?

 

[kerikiwi]

It's a combination from a lot of posters who have pointed out that in modern America the stigma associated with being a sex worker is no worse than that of being a burger flipper or waste operative

A lot of posters have said that?
Can you cite just one?

 

[Babbylonian]

I'm very happy about this because I'm all for the legalisation of prostitution and was only concerned about people who would be coerced into it through necessity. I can now see that I need not worry because it doesn't carry anything like the stigma I had thought and feared it did.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm since it's clearly not true.

The thing is, the stigma is going nowhere until prostitution is no longer a crime. While marijuana use has been legalized in some US jurisdictions, despite its relative benignity it still carries a stigma, especially in places where possession of even a little is a crime that can result in jail time.

In other words, as long as something is a prosecutable crime, it will be looked down upon. Even something newly legalized will still carry a stigma for some time afterward until society adjusts. Prostitution may always be considered disreputable, but that's not a good argument for keeping it illegal.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is there some way, as a john, I might be assured of this so that I am not acting unethically by forcing someone to participate in an act they'd rather not do?

Legalize it so that the prostitute has rights as an actual employee, with benefits and wages and such!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Do you seriously think there is no stigma against burger flippers at McDonald's? They are the butt of all types of jokes.

Do you think people take that job because they like it? And there is a societal bias against it.

I took that job in college because I needed 1) money to pay rent and 2) food to not starve.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are we just going to wave away societal taboos about sex in some attempt to will a rational utopia into existence?

No, we're going to wave away religious taboos about sex because they're dumb religious taboos about sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm very happy about this because I'm all for the legalisation of prostitution and was only concerned about people who would be coerced into it through necessity. I can now see that I need not worry because it doesn't carry anything like the stigma I had thought and feared it did.

If you don't stop this, I'm going to dribble tea out of my nose from trying to contain the giggling. I assume that this is your version of humor?

 

[The Don]

A lot of posters have said that?
Can you cite just one?

Well how about this in response to my original post that prostitution should be legal but that we need to ensure that people shouldn't be coerced into becoming a prostitute by third parties, through alcohol and drug dependency and through economic necessity.

How about if people are so desperate for money that they take a job cleaning the bathrooms at McDonald's? They would be "forced" into taking that type of job out of "economic necessity." If that is so, does that mean that you would have a problem with cleaning bathrooms at McDonald's as a living?

Jeez, doesn't pretty much everyone take a job out of "economic necessity"? And we take jobs that we can do and make money from them. Why is "flipping burgers" ok but "having sex" is not?

edited to add..........

No, but in parts of the world there was/is such a stigma about those who handle waste or handle the dead. I'm just saying there is little practical difference in terms of being "degraded" between having to muck out somebody's **** and being paid to suck somebody's genitals... And sexwork generally PAYS better.

 

[The Don]

Do you have trouble envisioning a black person being president?

In the United States, no.

Just because a social stigma exists doesn't make it right. Because there may be a stigma about being a prostitute is no reason to make prostitution illegal.

Correct, which is why my position has been that prostitution should be legal but protections should be in place to ensure that people aren't coerced into becoming a prostitute by third parties, through substance dependency or through economic necessity.

I said this because I thought that there may be long-term consequences of having been a prostitute. Studies I have linked show that there are risks to physical and mental welfare and I believed that there is a social stigma and social consequences associated with having been or being a prostitute. As long as the person making the decision to become a prostitute has made that decision willingly (and decision hasn't been made for them by their "boyfriend" or "girlfriend") and they are aware of the potential risks then that's fine.

And in NZ we have had an ex-prostitute elected to parliament.

Excellent, it shows that in New Zealand the stigma and risks of being a prostitute are much less and if someone becomes a prostitute the impact on their life later on is less, or even negligible.

 

[The Don]

I'm assuming this is sarcasm since it's clearly not true.

The thing is, the stigma is going nowhere until prostitution is no longer a crime. While marijuana use has been legalized in some US jurisdictions, despite its relative benignity it still carries a stigma, especially in places where possession of even a little is a crime that can result in jail time.

In other words, as long as something is a prosecutable crime, it will be looked down upon. Even something newly legalized will still carry a stigma for some time afterward until society adjusts. Prostitution may always be considered disreputable, but that's not a good argument for keeping it illegal.

My position has been consistent throughout this thread - prostitution should be legal but because there are risks associated with prostitution over and above other career choices, safeguards need to be in place to ensure that the decision to become a prostitute is voluntary and informed.

A number of posters in this thread have said that there are other cases of people taking unpleasant jobs through economic necessity. I have contended that, because of the social stigma, having been a prostitute will have a greater impact on life chances than say being a waste operative or having worked in McDonalds. Other posters have said that this is not the case and that those workers are stigmatised too (or that sex workers are not stigmatised).

 

[banquetbear]

Excellent, it shows that in New Zealand the stigma and risks of being a prostitute are much less and if someone becomes a prostitute the impact on their life later on is less, or even negligible.

...the stigma is still there of course. It isn't something that will go away in a generation or longer, and it is something that sex workers have to address both while they are working and when they eventually leave the industry. It can be harder for former sex workers to make it in other industries: that is an unfortunate reality. But I'm sure you would agree that this stigma isn't a good enough reason to keep prostitution illegal.

Earlier in the thread I posted a bit about Georgina Beyers: she was the first transsexual to be elected Mayor (of a town called Carterton, a town not known for its "liberal leanings") then elected to parliament in 1999. She is a fantastic person as well, and while I was working at Parliament she was one of my favourite MP's to work with.

I don't really have a problem with the position you hold, and I'm not entirely sure why people are arguing with you.

 

[The Don]

...the stigma is still there of course. It isn't something that will go away in a generation or longer, and it is something that sex workers have to address both while they are working and when they eventually leave the industry. It can be harder for former sex workers to make it in other industries: that is an unfortunate reality. But I'm sure you would agree that this stigma isn't a good enough reason to keep prostitution illegal.

I absolutely agree, for the umpteenth time (for others, I know you understand), my position is that prostitution should be legal but that safeguards need to be in place to ensure that the decision to become a prostitute is voluntary and informed.

 

[3point14]

we do it this way because we do it this way because that identifies us as us.[/url]

That's the opposite of critical thinking.

 

[catsmate]

A fascinating report from the Urban Institute that may be of interest;
Estimating the Size and Structure of the Underground Commercial Sex Economy in Eight Major US Cities (5MB PDF)

Heavily derived from interviews with those involved in the sex trade, more than 140 sex traffickers, pimps, child pornographers, and other sex workers were interviewed. A rather dense 350 page read though.

 

[marplots]

...we do it this way because we do it this way because that identifies us as us.

That's the opposite of critical thinking.

I'd say it's orthogonal instead. But critical thinking, in the admirable form, seems to be a learned skill. What I'm describing is an emergent property of human behavior. My critical thinking ability tells me I might do well to appreciate humans for what they are and what they produce, rather than for how I might prefer them to be.

I also think there's a certain value in this kind of mindless, undirected evolution of societal norms. My culture gives me standards, no matter how arbitrary, I can measure myself against - a way to determine my own worth in a larger context. Nature, as far as I can tell, doesn't do this for me. There is no calculation in physics I might use to justify legal or illegal prostitution. It really is humans all the way down.

If I accept that disgust and aversion are real phenomenon with a valid evolutionary mechanism (don't eat that, it stinks), and I note the feelings are transferred to acts like prostitution (or as Cecil Adams put it, "Icky") am I not just recognizing a fact about human beings, that we are at least partially driven by unthinking emotional reaction?

The challenge then, for those who would like to see prostitution legalized, is to reframe it to make it palatable. Arguably, this is what regulations do where prostitution is legal. It isn't a free-for-all, it's still illegal in some forms, but the regulations have the effect of removing some of the taint. Some types of prostitution are still illegal in New Zealand. According to Wiki: "It remains a crime to coerce 'someone to provide sexual services'. Sex work is also prohibited for those on temporary visas, and immigration for and investment in sex work is prohibited."

 

[marplots]

Here's an interesting twist that caught my eye:
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/hawaii-law-lets-police-have-sex-with-prostitutes

Apparently, cops in Hawaii are allowed to try the product before they make an arrest.

 

[Dissolution]

Here's an interesting twist that caught my eye:
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/hawaii-law-lets-police-have-sex-with-prostitutes

Apparently, cops in Hawaii are allowed to try the product before they make an arrest.

I'd have thought that it'd be for undercover officers, much like the use of drugs.
If you can out a policeman by simply getting a prostitute for him, then they're in real trouble.