Split Thread Legality of Prostitution

[pgwenthold]

Did you suffer long-term consequences from your decision to take this job resulting from society's bias against sewer workers ?.

Do you seriously think there is no stigma against burger flippers at McDonald's? They are the butt of all types of jokes.

Do you think people take that job because they like it? And there is a societal bias against it.

 

[marplots]

Do you seriously think there is no stigma against burger flippers at McDonald's? They are the butt of all types of jokes.

Do you think people take that job because they like it? And there is a societal bias against it.

Interesting. I can see the parallel, but then I remember I occasionally make hamburgers for my family and friends in my backyard but never offer sex for dessert. Are we just going to wave away societal taboos about sex in some attempt to will a rational utopia into existence?

Where prostitution is legal, is it also private? Why should that be?

And as far as wishing my own moral standards to be the norm, how could it be any different? If I didn't want it to be so, could I even call them standards?

 

[pgwenthold]

Interesting. I can see the parallel, but then I remember I occasionally make hamburgers for my family and friends in my backyard but never offer sex for dessert. Are we just going to wave away societal taboos about sex in some attempt to will a rational utopia into existence?

Let's see, you've got a nice non sequitor followed by a strawman. Oh well.

But to your question - the only way to overcome IRRATIONAL "societal taboos" is to actually try to change them. And the way to do that is to force it on people.


You sound like my parents in their argument against interracial marriage. "So what happens if generations down the line, the white couple has a black baby!"

That's only a problem, of course, if you care whether someone has a black baby. So what?

50 years ago that would have been a problem due to "societal taboos." Nowadays? There are still racists out there, but not near as much of a problem. Did we "wave away" the societal taboo? No, we fought it. And it made a difference.

Gay marriage used to be a "societal taboo." Now the majority of people support it. Did we "wave away" the taboo? No, we forced it on people, because the opposition did not make sense. You know what happened? People realized that their objections did not make sense.

"A lot of people think it's icky and therefore we need to keep it illegal" is an argument that never works. It always goes down eventually.

 

[Akri]

The premise was that some people enjoy being prostitutes, so prostitution isn't going against their desires in that case, making it ethical.

No. My statement was strictly about the idea that it is "not cool" to use someone as a "masturbatory aid". Since some people do enjoy this, making such a blanket statement treats the speaker's sexual views as the only valid sexual views, which is wrong. This is not strictly about prostitutes--you don't have to be a prostitute to be used in such a way, particularly if that's how you wish to be treated.

I did not argue that because some prostitutes enjoy being prostitutes that it is therefor ethical to hire them. I did not argue this because I don't see how it's unethical to hire someone to do something they don't particularly like, provided they are consenting. But feel free to offer an argument for why having someone do something they don't really enjoy (but which they consented to) is unethical.

So, I should ignore the position of the prostitute as well as the toilet cleaner, both of whom are working to take care of my biological needs?

Do you currently pay attention to the toilet cleaner's feelings? If you're at a restaurant and you need to use the restroom, do you first find the person who cleans the toilets so that you can make sure they enjoy their job?

Is it also jail-worthy if someone else (perhaps a pimp) is doing the forcing and I am merely taking advantage of the situation?

If you do so knowingly then yes.

 

[The Don]

Do you seriously think there is no stigma against burger flippers at McDonald's? They are the butt of all types of jokes.

Do you think people take that job because they like it? And there is a societal bias against it.

The stigma is less. Are you seriously suggesting that having flipped burgers at McDonalds will have the same impact on your future employability, your social standing and the choices you will have in the future ?

I can envisage ex-burger flippers being elected to public office in any of the 50 states, not so much ex-prostitutes.

 

[marplots]

Let's see, you've got a nice non sequitor followed by a strawman. Oh well.

But to your question - the only way to overcome IRRATIONAL "societal taboos" is to actually try to change them. And the way to do that is to force it on people.

I can't argue against that bit, since forcing is the go-to mechanism.

You sound like my parents in their argument against interracial marriage. "So what happens if generations down the line, the white couple has a black baby!"

That's only a problem, of course, if you care whether someone has a black baby. So what?

50 years ago that would have been a problem due to "societal taboos." Nowadays? There are still racists out there, but not near as much of a problem. Did we "wave away" the societal taboo? No, we fought it. And it made a difference.

Does this hold for all societal taboos or only the ones you don't care for?

Gay marriage used to be a "societal taboo." Now the majority of people support it. Did we "wave away" the taboo? No, we forced it on people, because the opposition did not make sense. You know what happened? People realized that their objections did not make sense.

Sure. I wouldn't argue that fashions can't change. We add them as well. It wasn't always taboo for children to work a full week at the factory. Spanking used to be pretty popular as well.

"A lot of people think it's icky and therefore we need to keep it illegal" is an argument that never works. It always goes down eventually.

Except that's exactly the argument you are invoking. If I say I'm dead set against any form of prostitution, wouldn't you find my stance "icky?" Furthermore, aren't you using your own sense of right and wrong as the yardstick, exactly the same way your opponents use theirs?

If there isn't a symmetry here, I fail to see where one position gains the upper hand.

 

[The Don]

No, but in parts of the world there was/is such a stigma about those who handle waste or handle the dead. I'm just saying there is little practical difference in terms of being "degraded" between having to muck out somebody's **** and being paid to suck somebody's genitals... And sexwork generally PAYS better.

I've been working for sexworker's rights since the 1980s, and for about 15 years ran an influential private mailing list for sexworkers and rights advocates, so there is very little about this subject that I am not acquainted with.

Then I'm out of my depth and I apologise I lack the knowledge to discuss the matter from an informed position.

 

[Belz...]

How dare you apologise on the Internet ?

 

[I Am The Scum]

If being a prostitute will cause one to have low social standing, I can't imagine that being a prostitute with a criminal record will improve the matter.

So how exactly is putting prostitutes in jail helping things?

 

[ponderingturtle]

The stigma is less. Are you seriously suggesting that having flipped burgers at McDonalds will have the same impact on your future employability, your social standing and the choices you will have in the future ?

I can envisage ex-burger flippers being elected to public office in any of the 50 states, not so much ex-prostitutes.

You think there really is that much social mobility?

 

[Slowvehicle]

The stigma is less. Are you seriously suggesting that having flipped burgers at McDonalds will have the same impact on your future employability, your social standing and the choices you will have in the future ?

I can envisage ex-burger flippers being elected to public office in any of the 50 states, not so much ex-prostitutes.

I offer you the example of Ronald Reagan...

 

[The Don]

You think there really is that much social mobility?

I think so, I think a lot of people have worked in a fast food outlet and then gone on tho other careers especially those who worked in a fast food outlet while at high school or university.

Mrs Don did when she was at MIT, her sister did while she was Rochester. many of my friends children here in the UK have done so and about 1/4 of the people I was at university did while they were there.

 

[The Don]

I offer you the example of Ronald Reagan...

I didn't realise he was an ex sex worker, I stand corrected.

 

[Slowvehicle]

I didn't realise he was an ex sex worker, I stand corrected.

Sorry--trying to be funny. Equating the quality of his movies with prostitution. Some people will do anything for money.

 

[Babbylonian]

I can envisage ex-burger flippers being elected to public office in any of the 50 states, not so much ex-prostitutes.

I can't see outspoken atheists (or Moonies or Muslims for that matter) being elected to public office in many to most US jurisdictions. It's not a great argument.

 

[The Don]

I can't see outspoken atheists (or Moonies or Muslims for that matter) being elected to public office in many to most US jurisdictions. It's not a great argument.

Then I have to admit I am surprised, biased and wrong. It was my distinct impression that being a current or ex sex worker in the US carried a greater social stigma and presented greater barriers to future progress than either working in McDonalds or working as a waste operative.

I don't live in the US (although I am a reasonably frequent visitor and most of my relatives are US citizens living in the US) so maybe I've just jumped to conclusions. It's refreshing to see that the US is so much more open-minded about this kind of thing than the UK and that sex work is seen by most as just another career path.

 

[marplots]

If being a prostitute will cause one to have low social standing, I can't imagine that being a prostitute with a criminal record will improve the matter.

So how exactly is putting prostitutes in jail helping things?

I don't think it has much at all to do with "helping things." It's more a statement of societal will and identification, an expression of who we think we are.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I don't think it has much at all to do with "helping things." It's more a statement of societal will and identification, an expression of who we think we are.

Then it would appear that you and I are in agreement, that criminalization of this act does nothing to mitigate its harms.

I'm still left wondering what the purpose is.

 

[marplots]

Then it would appear that you and I are in agreement, that criminalization of this act does nothing to mitigate its harms.

I'm still left wondering what the purpose is.

I'm not a sociologist, anthropologist or criminologist, but I've always thought laws like this were like team jerseys - we do it this way because we do it this way because that identifies us as us.

There's some research from the 1950s that shows how arbitrary rules emerge as "tribe identifiers." I'll see if I can find a description - I remember it used teen boys separated into groups at a Boy Scout camp...

Here ya go: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/08/21/the-illusion-of-asymmetric-insight/

 

[Babbylonian]

Then I have to admit I am surprised, biased and wrong. It was my distinct impression that being a current or ex sex worker in the US carried a greater social stigma and presented greater barriers to future progress than either working in McDonalds or working as a waste operative.

I don't live in the US (although I am a reasonably frequent visitor and most of my relatives are US citizens living in the US) so maybe I've just jumped to conclusions. It's refreshing to see that the US is so much more open-minded about this kind of thing than the UK and that sex work is seen by most as just another career path.

Wow. That was a whole lot of stuff I neither said nor implied.