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Leave Islam and Die

dudalb said:
At one time, yes.
But that has changed over the past few hundred years.
Look, I am not crazy about a lot of Christian beliefs,also. And I have a immense dislike of Christian Fundies. But to say they are just as dangerous and deadly as Muslim fanatics is ignoring reality to feed a prejudice.
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Exactly, and thank you for reminding me someone else gets it.

Yes as BP pointed out, I was being sarcastic. :)
 
ohms said:
It's certainly not just an Iranian issue. Anyone that saw the recent Undercover Mosque: The Return in the UK will have seen the same message being preached in a UK mosque:

I'm not saying that this is happening in all mosques or that all the imams are preaching this message but is an issue that I think needs to be addressed.
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Do you know if the same Mosques were revisited? From memory some of the Mosques in the original series are ones that are highly praised as being moderate and forward thinking, and actively involved integrating themselves into the wider community.
 
I Ratant said:
This is the culture, that with absolutely no precedents for self-rule, is supposed to toss all that religious crap aside and embrace democracy and self-governance.
Fat chance of that ever happening!
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Persia/Iran has had self-rule for the majority of it's modern existance. Do you mean democratic or representative rule instead?
 
BPSCG said:
Link.
Great. Abandon Islam and we'll kill you. It's no excuse that you didn't know just because we didn't tell you.
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Better not get involved with any religion.

Remember that the Old Testament and Torah also demand the death of homosexuals and children have their genitals ritually mutilated by some religions. Interestingly noone bothers to tell the children what is happening to them
 
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Christianity just as bad? So you can't denounce Christianity without getting death threats? You can't leave a church without fearing for your life?

What country are you in?
 
dudalb said:
At one time, yes.
But that has changed over the past few hundred years.
Look, I am not crazy about a lot of Christian beliefs,also. And I have a immense dislike of Christian Fundies. But to say they are just as dangerous and deadly as Muslim fanatics is ignoring reality to feed a prejudice. The last real bad outbreak of Christian violence was Northern Ireland, and even that never quite reached the insanity of the suicide bomber.
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Having said that the Christians in Northern Ireland were an awful lot better at it that our current UK muslim terrorists who are quite frankly a bit crap.
 
RandFan said:
Well that's good. I was worried there for a moment. As if Iran could actually enforce their laws.
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They can but things tend to get somewhat odd. I think they are still trying to sort out their first sex tape scandle.
 
There is something a little desperate about such an edict. It sort of says "Yes we know it is a load of pish but don't think you can get out of it that easily". If they were confident about the strength of their beliefs they wouldn't need such a law. In Allah hangman's noose we trust.
 
I wonder if this applies to immigrants from Iran who convert to another religion in other countries? Here in Atlanta GA we have a church that consists entirely of Iranian Christians who converted after they left iran.
 
gumboot said:
Do you know if the same Mosques were revisited? From memory some of the Mosques in the original series are ones that are highly praised as being moderate and forward thinking, and actively involved integrating themselves into the wider community.
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Regent's Park Mosque (Central London Mosque) was revisited and it's where most of the undercover filming took place. This mosque also had a lot of inflammatory material in it's bookshop which didn't fit the description of "better relations and integration with other faiths and cultures" stuff exposed by those who ran the mosque.

Channel 4 blurb.
 
jdp said:
Oh I am betting they'll take special interest in enforcing that law.
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Under the bill, anyone declaring publicly that he was knowingly abandoning Islam of his own free will face the death penalty.
The bill is now in permanent force, after being extended every five years since its temporary ratification in 1991.
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These yahoos have a tendency to think that "anyone" is not restricted to Iranians...
 
RandFan said:
Well that's good. I was worried there for a moment. As if Iran could actually enforce their laws.
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The effed-up thing about Iran is that the revolution occurred because the leader (the Shah) was considered a poor leader put in place by Western powers, and since then the same (well, relatively the same) Western powers have been involved in various attempts to pressure the current government out of power. It's been ineffectual for the same reason you trying to step into a fight between three brothers is likely to get you ganged up on by all three. The Iranian government loves taking advantage of this, and twists their media to portray the West as being collectively against Iran regularly. It's not even convincing in most cases, and there's a growing population there who are becoming disenchanted. But the caution here is that after the first foreign country to go lobbing ordinance at Iran, that disenchantment and resentment toward the Iranian government will be the first thing to disappear, especially if it's a highly controversial foreign country like the US, the UK, or Israel.

I can even understand the mindset. If someone attacked my family, even if I thought my family was in the wrong side of the argument, I'd probably try to tear the attacker a new one. I feel similarly about any foreign power even thinking about attacking this country. I'm fully prepared and aware of the fact that I will put aside mercy if I feel that me and my own are under threat. I'm fully convinced that almost all of the Iranians feel similarly, and they've shown as much in the past.

Don't mistake that for the people being happy with or even condoning their government's practices.
 
I Ratant said:
Where is the independence of thought in a unanimous acceptance of Islam (or else)?
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"Self-rule" doesn't mean what you think it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-rule

That's why I asked if you meant democratic or representative rule instead.

And Islam was not enforced by law during the Shah's reign nor during much of the 20th Century. It only came to be with the advent of the Islamic Republic.
 
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GreNME said:
The effed-up thing about Iran is that the revolution occurred because the leader (the Shah) was considered a poor leader put in place by Western powers, and since then the same (well, relatively the same) Western powers have been involved in various attempts to pressure the current government out of power. It's been ineffectual for the same reason you trying to step into a fight between three brothers is likely to get you ganged up on by all three. The Iranian government loves taking advantage of this, and twists their media to portray the West as being collectively against Iran regularly. It's not even convincing in most cases, and there's a growing population there who are becoming disenchanted. But the caution here is that after the first foreign country to go lobbing ordinance at Iran, that disenchantment and resentment toward the Iranian government will be the first thing to disappear, especially if it's a highly controversial foreign country like the US, the UK, or Israel.
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This is an astute observation, and while it's rather obvious when you think about it, for some reason I suspect it hasn't occurred to those in power... ;)

I don't think there's anything wrong with preparing for the potential of an immediate and serious threat from Iran, and having contingencies for armed force to counter such a threat. But to publicly discuss and admit to those contingencies, and to act as if such a threat is just around the corner is simply very poor strategy. Even if Iran really is months away from being an "immediately and serious threat" (I don't think they are), you're not doing yourself any favours with an antagonist attitude.

This clash that the USA is in with Iran is part of an ideological struggle, and you don't win ideological struggles with air strikes. The best chance of success is to convince the Iranian people that their leaders are archaic intolerant scum who need replacing.

You'll only achieve that if you make a serious effort to engage Iran and give them every opportunity to be friendly. Then, when the idiot leaders continue with their rhetoric and aggressive stance, the Iranian people will see what is in their best interests.

The Americans have made the same mistake in Iraq - focusing on an aggressive antagonistic stance against insurgents instead of focusing energies on protecting and nurturing the civilian population.

Basically what is needed with Iran is some good old fashioned WHAM.
 
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