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I propose a toast to Gov. Brewer!
Thanks for posting up that proof that an individual can make a difference.
 
pakeha said:
^
I propose a toast to Gov. Brewer!
Thanks for posting up that proof that an individual can make a difference.
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It's probably the only thing that she's ever done right in her career. What's the most surprising about it is that she voted against something that a primarily Caucasian group wanted.

Jan Brewer is the governor who voted to defund transplants for Medicaid patients, allowing several of them to die before the bill was overturned. She also signed an extremely racist immigration bill that legalized racial profiling. The bill allowed the police to stop any minority at any time solely on suspicion of illegal immigration, thereby forcing legal immigrants and native-born Americans with Mexican ancestry to have to carry their identification at all times in order to prove that they were in the US legally.

I do acknowledge that she stopped this one bad law from getting through though. Maybe she's learning about how much it costs the State of Arizona to defend a bad law once it's been enacted. Here's Brewer's record as it stand now:

  • Discriminating against the poor and disabled: OK
  • Discriminating against racial minorities: OK
  • Religious discrimination: No, that's bad, m'kay?

A very cynical part of me wonders if Brewer vetoed the bill because she didn't want to lose the tourist dollars that Arizona rakes in from the hippy-dippy New Age businesses around Sonoma
 
Apology said:
A very cynical part of me wonders if Brewer vetoed the bill because she didn't want to lose the tourist dollars that Arizona rakes in from the hippy-dippy New Age businesses around Sonoma
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If she's as bad as your summary suggests, someone probably just pointed out all the ways Hispanics and Muslims could use the law to their advantage against WASPs.
 
Slowvehicle said:
Janadele:
... Also,when will you provide your practical, empirical evidence, attested to by neutral sources, for the existence of, for instance, horse culture... in the pre-Colombian Americas?
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3335989c2a4f82af24f3a9def90b3481.1e1

PARIS — Scientists on Wednesday said they had unravelled the DNA of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago, a record-breaking feat in the young field of palaeo-genomics.... Reporting in the journal Nature, the team said the tale began 10 years ago, with the discovery of a piece of fossilised horse bone in the permafrost at a location called Thistle Creek, in Canada's Yukon territory... The sample had been astonishingly preserved in the deep chill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/science/genome-of-horse-buried-700000-years-is-recovered.html?_r=0

The genome was that of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago in what is now the Yukon Territory in Canada...The horse DNA was extracted from a hind toe bone found in the Thistle Creek region of the Yukon’s Klondike gold mines. It owes its remarkable longevity to the bone having been buried in permafrost, which kept the DNA both very cold and very dry.
 
Everybody knows there were horses in the Americas back then, Janadele. That's not in dispute. What's in dispute is that there were horses a few thousand years ago, at the time the Book of Mormon is set. They'd been extinct for thousands of years, and were re-introduced into the Americas after Columbus.

http://discoverseaz.com/History/Horse.html

Most of the evolutionary development of the horse (54 million years ago to about 10,000 years ago) actually took place in North America, where they developed the very successful strategy of grazing (eating grass) rather than browsing (eating softer succulent leaves). [...]

Horses (Equus)continued to evolve and develop for another six million years after Pliohippus and became very successful, spreading throughout North America. At some point some of them crossed into the Old World via the Arctic-Asia land bridge. Then, suddenly, no one is absolutely certain why, between 10,000 and 8,000 years ago, Equus disappeared from North and South America. Various theories have been advanced including destruction by drought, disease, or extinction as a result of hunting by growing human populations. At any rate, the horse was gone from the western hemisphere. The submergence of the Bering land bridge prevented any return migration from the Old World or Asia, and the horse was not seen again on its native continent until the Spanish explorers brought horses by ship in the sixteenth century.
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Janadele said:
PARIS — Scientists on Wednesday said they had unravelled the DNA of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago, (snip)
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That's horses, not horse culture in the Book of Mormon era. There's no doubt there were horses in the Americas long before the Book of Mormon era. I posted earlier on that topic, including what the church's Book or Mormon Student Manual has to say, which oddly quotes an 1890 encyclopedia in 2009: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8912033&postcount=1954

From that post:

Pup said:
There's really been no more modern research that has changed the very gross generalization in the 1890 encyclopedia quote: horses almost the size of modern ones existed in the Americas, became extinct thousands of years before the Book of Mormon era, then were reintroduced by the Spaniards. Even the latest research in the Yukon still puts horses barely hanging on 7500 years ago, while the Book of Mormon has them in use 5000 years more recently, 2500 years ago.
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Janadele said:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3335989c2a4f82af24f3a9def90b3481.1e1

PARIS — Scientists on Wednesday said they had unravelled the DNA of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago, a record-breaking feat in the young field of palaeo-genomics.... Reporting in the journal Nature, the team said the tale began 10 years ago, with the discovery of a piece of fossilised horse bone in the permafrost at a location called Thistle Creek, in Canada's Yukon territory... The sample had been astonishingly preserved in the deep chill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/science/genome-of-horse-buried-700000-years-is-recovered.html?_r=0

The genome was that of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago in what is now the Yukon Territory in Canada...The horse DNA was extracted from a hind toe bone found in the Thistle Creek region of the Yukon’s Klondike gold mines. It owes its remarkable longevity to the bone having been buried in permafrost, which kept the DNA both very cold and very dry.
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I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon puts specific dates with the events described therein, and it's a wee bit more recent than 700,000 years ago.

Of course, given that you're a creationist, how does the date jibe with the "fact" that the earth is only 6,000 years old?
 
Cleon said:
I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon puts specific dates with the events described therein, and it's a wee bit more recent than 700,000 years ago.

Of course, given that you're a creationist, how does the date jibe with the "fact" that the earth is only 6,000 years old?
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Typical scienteristical persiflage to quibble over a little old decimal point.
 
Janadele said:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.3335989c2a4f82af24f3a9def90b3481.1e1

PARIS — Scientists on Wednesday said they had unravelled the DNA of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago, a record-breaking feat in the young field of palaeo-genomics.... Reporting in the journal Nature, the team said the tale began 10 years ago, with the discovery of a piece of fossilised horse bone in the permafrost at a location called Thistle Creek, in Canada's Yukon territory... The sample had been astonishingly preserved in the deep chill.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/27/science/genome-of-horse-buried-700000-years-is-recovered.html?_r=0

The genome was that of a horse that lived some 700,000 years ago in what is now the Yukon Territory in Canada...The horse DNA was extracted from a hind toe bone found in the Thistle Creek region of the Yukon’s Klondike gold mines. It owes its remarkable longevity to the bone having been buried in permafrost, which kept the DNA both very cold and very dry.
Click to expand...

Why, yes, there were horses in the new world 700,000 years ago--the new world, is, after all, where Equus evolved. Unfortunately,there were no humans in the new world 700,000 years ago. The first evidence of humans in the new world dates from 14,000 years ago, (give or take a thousand years or so). Equus went extinct in the Americas 10,000 years ago.

The story of Lehi purports to cover the time from 600 BCE to 130 BCE--well after the time of the latest evidence of the existence of the horse in the pre-Colombian Americas. Even you should be able to see that one example of 700,000-year-old equine DNA, is not support for the existence of horse cultures in the first Century BCE. You have an 8,000-year gap in your evidence.

But thank you for the entertaining link.

ETA: Ninja'd by Pixel, Pup, and Cleon...well done!
 
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One of the saddest things about LDS Mormons is that they will ever have the opportunity to start a lazy Sunday morning with an Irish Coffee.

At least Muslims get to drink Coffee.

http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson1820.html


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited for Hotlinking (but check out the link, it's funny).
 
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halleyscomet said:
One of the saddest things about LDS Mormons is that they will ever have the opportunity to start a lazy Sunday morning with an Irish Coffee.

At least Muslims get to drink Coffee.

http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson1820.html


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited for Hotlinking (but check out the link, it's funny).
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Curses! Foiled again!

The was supposed to be "Never have the opportunity" but the mods removed hotlinked image before I noticed the typographical error.

Oh well.
 
More a la carte faith from Janadele. A devout creationist, but has no qualms misusing science with older dates to try to back up a claim that is groundless.

Also, Janadele, you never did answer the question I asked of you four or five times:

Is it acceptable to bear false witness against your neighbors for the purpose of proslytization?
 
Uh-oh. Fact checking is becoming more popular among Mormons.

Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

In the small but cohesive Mormon community where he grew up, Hans Mattsson was a solid believer and a pillar of the church. He followed his father and grandfather into church leadership and finally became an “area authority” overseeing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout Europe.

Hans Mattsson and his wife, Birgitta, in New York last month. Mr. Mattsson used to oversee the Mormon Church in Europe.

When fellow believers in Sweden first began coming to him with information from the Internet that contradicted the church’s history and teachings, he dismissed it as “anti-Mormon propaganda,” the whisperings of Lucifer. He asked his superiors for help in responding to the members’ doubts, and when they seemed to only sidestep the questions, Mr. Mattsson began his own investigation.

But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.
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Read more about the Mormon struggle with research
 
Yeah, unless LDS takes a Scientology-esque approach and starts demanding that members put nannybots on their computers, the Church is going to have some serious problems in the Information Age.
 
Cleon said:
the Church is going to have some serious problems in the Information Age.
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Not as much as you'd expect, judging from some of the posters on this thread and other Mormons I've encountered online elsewhere.

Don't underestimate the human ability to ignore or rationalise inconvenient facts. If someone wants to believe something strongly enough they can always come up with explanations of contradictory evidence that are acceptable to them, if to nobody else.
 
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