LDS

[tsig]

Heaven doesn't just clean itself, you know.

True, and I bet the Big HF doesn't want a cold dinner when He comes home from drowning worlds and setting bears on babies.

 

[tsig]

HA!! Suck on THAT, Heavenly Mother!

So that's how they get those spirit babies.

 

[Craig4]

Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.

I just have to know, at what point to you just turn off your brain and swallow every obvious lie that your church throws at you? You really can't believe this stuff. What is your goal here? It can't be to advocate for the LDS church. Your posts really would just drive away anyone considering joining your cult. To skeptics your posts are really just objects of derision and cold humor, largely at your expense.

 

[Jon.]

By Mormon doctrine, the children you create as a god, go through the same thing we're going through now, and the best of them will become gods like you. (The gods go back ad infinitum with each previous version being higher than their offspring.) Since only the very best Mormon men and women will become gods in the afterlife, presumably the thing perpetuates itself.

Sounds like a pyramid scheme multi-level marketing applied to spirituality.

 

[kerikiwi]

No, it is an Eternal Principal that Priesthood Authority is held by worthy males. Our Heavenly Father holds the Priesthood, our Heavenly Mother does not.

I realise god is the principal, but don't you mean eternal principle?
Is it eternal principle what constitutes a worthy male as opposed to the unworthy sort?
The heavenly mother thing is new. Did Smith see stories about her in the hat too?

 

[Jon.]

Janadele, do you know who Mitochondrial Eve is? Do you understand that every human on the planet is of "African descent"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

It even goes beyond reality and science. If we accept the Book of Genesis as being true (as Janadele apparently does) then apparently either all humans are of African descent, or (ultimately) none are, depending on where the Garden of Eden was.

Of course, if we accept the BoG, then we also accept the Curse of Ham explanation for black skin, which leaves the only criterion for determining who is unworthy/inferior/etc. as the colour of the skin. Which doesn't work because, in the real world, skin colour varies on a graduated scale, not as discrete differences. (In other words, it's not a black and white issue)

 

[Empress]

It even goes beyond reality and science. If we accept the Book of Genesis as being true (as Janadele apparently does) then apparently either all humans are of African descent, or (ultimately) none are, depending on where the Garden of Eden was.

Of course, if we accept the BoG, then we also accept the Curse of Ham explanation for black skin, which leaves the only criterion for determining who is unworthy/inferior/etc. as the colour of the skin. Which doesn't work because, in the real world, skin colour varies on a graduated scale, not as discrete differences. (In other words, it's not a black and white issue)

Once again, Mormonism shows what a truly American religion it is. The Garden of Eden was in America, probably around Missouri. Yeah, that one surprised me, too.

 

[RandFan]

Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.

That's not Mormon doctrine.

 

[RandFan]

As far as I am aware the determining criteria was of African descent.

"as far as [you] are aware"? I've shown you all of these scriptures that say "black" or "blackness", what is your basis to say "African"? I'm guessing revisionist history. The Mormon Church is big on rewriting things. Do overs. The only Church with a pipeline to god can't get its story straight.

 

[Jon.]

Once again, Mormonism shows what a truly American religion it is. The Garden of Eden was in America, probably around Missouri. Yeah, that one surprised me, too.

Yeah, I'd heard that one too. It's another head-scratcher for me when it comes to Mormonism: The Chosen People start in North America, then leave for the Middle East, then all split up, some coming back to NA via South America? Yeah, sounds likely.

 

[Empress]

Sounds like a pyramid scheme multi-level marketing applied to spirituality.

That's what the church itself is, imo. Bunch of old men at the top skimming off the proceeds given by the poor people at the bottom, who often go without to give at the bare minimum their 10% tithe, and often more. There's a very good reason the LDS church doesn't release their IRS returns.

In addition, they tout their welfare program, but using their own released figures, the LDS church puts less than 1% of it's yearly income into the welfare program. I handle my mother's finances and when I write out checks to her church every month knowing where that money is going when it could be used to buy groceries for the local food bank, or even just to buy herself some nice luxuries, it tends to make my blood boil.

 

[RandFan]

Janadele, do you know who Mitochondrial Eve is? Do you understand that every human on the planet is of "African descent"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

The Mormon Church only accepts science when it's not in contradiction with the Mormon Church. Let's be clear here. If the Mormon Church is true then anything that contradicts it must be false. Simple logic. Checkmate.

 

[DragonLady]

The Mormon Church only accepts science when it's not in contradiction with the Mormon Church. Let's be clear here. If the Mormon Church is true then anything that contradicts it must be false. Simple logic. Checkmate.

Yeah. I get it.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Every mortal ever born on this earth, and all those yet to come, are the Spiritual children of their Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.

I truly do not want to seem to be spamming the thread, but you have ignored my questions since your first, "Of course I believe...", which does not engage my requests for explication, at all. In that light:

When, in your opinion, did the "Eve" and the "Adam" of this universe existr, and was it really in Missouri?

When, in your opinion, did the globally destructive punitive flood occur,in this universe?

Where might one find the "International Internet Laws" you claim have jurisdiction here?

Why, if the BoM lists "black skin" as the deal-breaker (until recently), do you claim that mormon doctrine defines "of African descent" as the criterion (and why does that not apply to all humans, as we are all "of African descent")?

Do consider answering these questions...

I thank you in advance.

 

[tsig]

Once again, Mormonism shows what a truly American religion it is. The Garden of Eden was in America, probably around Missouri. Yeah, that one surprised me, too.

When the Lord comes again he's going to first set foot in a city lot in Independence Mo. It's currently owned by the Church of Christ (former RLDS).

 

[tsig]

Yeah, I'd heard that one too. It's another head-scratcher for me when it comes to Mormonism: The Chosen People start in North America, then leave for the Middle East, then all split up, some coming back to NA via South America? Yeah, sounds likely.

The Golden Plates themselves were supposedly placed in the Hill Cumorah after a great climactic battle there yet there's no sign of a battle and now they've moved all the BoM events down south.

Imagining LDS type elders dressed as the Maya are depicted is amusing though.

 

[pakeha]

Let's take the inquisition. You don't think there was anything cynical or fraudulent about that? I think it was a case of powerful people knowingly hijacking religion to terrorize the opposition into silence.

Please don't distract the thread.
We're discussing the LDS, not the Santa Oficio.

That really is a good analogy. When the prize is big enough (heaven, power, etc.), people can delude themselves in surprising ways.

A con is a con is a con.
There will always be victims for even the crassest- for example Smith's 'translation' of the BOA.

See, that's what I don't get. Why is it any less of a "fraud" to pass off a 2,000 year old book as "holy script" than a brand new book? In both cases, it's equally not true. The evidence for both is exactly the same--pure faith alone. A talking snake or horses in America circa 600 B.C.--I don't buy either one.

Are you justifying Smith's deliberate scam by saying all religions are scams?

Again, it's falling for the Protestant PR spin, that it's normal to claim a 2,000-year-old book is scripture but a conscious fraud to claim that anything newer is. Yet, at one time, the Bible was just as new as the Book of Mormon, and people were passing it off as holy scripture. A religion founded on a hoax is still founded on a hoax, 20 years later or 2000 years later.

And?
Does that justify fobbing off the BOA as a genuine translation?

Yes they're all frauds but the title of this thread is "LDS" so your continued mention of others strikes me as an attempt at distraction.

Distraction from what?

I've probably posted as much social history surrounding the LDS church as anyone on this thread, from 19th century secular medical books resembling the Word of Wisdom, to 19th century theories about the origin of the American Indians.

None of it is an attempt to distract from the LDS church. All of it is an attempt to further understanding of the behavior of LDS church founders and members.

I'm a big proponent of looking at things in context, because it's my observation that human behavior is rarely unique. It usually only appears to be unique when the surrounding social context is forgotten. That often happens if it's an obscure area, like 19th century anthropological theories on the origin of the American Indians.
... What I was trying to do was show the difference between a clean-slate atheistic view which starts with no attributes of god (since all religions are made-up, so people can fantasize anything they want), and a Protestant-socialized view of religion, which starts with the view that the Protestant-Catholic-Jewish religions are the baseline of what religion should be, with ancient scriptures and little-to-no current input from God.

Joseph Smith used that to his advantage, of course, by wording the Book of Mormon in pseudo-Elizabethan English, because people in his generation were socialized to believe God spoke that way, due to the popularity of the King James translation of the Bible. Nowadays, modern-English translations of the Bible are more popular, and guess what the newer additions to the Doctrine & Convenants sound like?

I think many people in modern society aren't aware of just how deeply Protestant religion affects everyone's world-view of what religion should be, even if they're not believers themselves.

Actually, Pup, I think you're over-selling Protestantism, at least in terms of the world.
Maybe in terms of the US, yes.
I wouldn't know.
And your point is?

 

[Janadele]

Wait, according to the Book of Mormon God cursed the Lamanites with black skin for their sins. You know, the guys who supposedly were the ancestors of Native Americans*. How does that apply to people of African descent? [/SIZE]

Lamanites and Native Americans were never excluded from holding the Priesthood. Read and comprehend before responding.

 

[Hokulele]

Lamanites and Native Americans were never excluded from holding the Priesthood. Read and comprehend before responding.

Where in your various readings does it describe those who are excluded as being of African descent? Please cite chapter and verse.

 

[Cleon]

Lamanites and Native Americans were never excluded from holding the Priesthood.

So God's cursing the Lamanites black skin (according to the BoM) is a completely separate issue from African-Americans being denied the priesthood?

That seems to reinforce the idea that early Mormon leaders hated everyone who wasn't white. Are you sure you wanted to do that?

Read and comprehend before responding.

Ah, that's what we call "irony."