LDS

[Craig4]

I apologize (perhaps you should, too--for character assassination).



In Joseph Smith's day, spelling, many definitions, and punctuation were not standardized. In fact, work on an acceptable dictionary of the English language, The Oxford English Dictionary, was not even started until 1857, under the direction of Prof. James Murray (he died before it was completed, some four decades later). Today, as you may know, the "Oxford" is the gold standard of English language dictionaries.

In light of the foregoing, your reproduction of the original introduction is irrelevant. Why? Because as later editions of the BoM were published, editors changed the introduction to clarify Joseph Smith's intended meaning. They could clearly see (as could virtually anyone) that the last sentence was meant to summarize the entire introduction, not merely the Book of Ether. Common sense and context told them that. Why would Joseph Smith summarize only the Book of Ether in his introduction to the entire book? That makes no sense.



There are, in fact, nine em dashes (1979 triple combination), and they are not functionally limited to signifying a conclusion. Em dashes are used to indicate a break or change in thought, an unfinished sentence, and, yes, to set off summaries or definitions. (Geraldine Woods, Webster's New World Punctuation: Simplified and Applied, p. 114; Wikipedia, "Dash," "em dash)



Excuse me, but you err. You fail to recognize the non-standardization of punctuation in Joseph Smith's day (and for years thereafter), but more tellingly you cannot explain why the previous eight em dashes fail to yield to new paragraphs.

I'll be charitable: Consider the possibility that you may be in over your head.

Are you seriously suggesting that a translation error accounts for the claim that there was barley in the pre-Colombian Americas? I'll clear that one up. According to both the "American Frugal Housewife" and "Virginia Housewife" cookbooks, both published well before the first English dictionary the words barley and corn both appear (though I corn is sometimes spelled with a K).

 

[Pup]

I couldn't figure out what his point was either, and could not find Moroni on his map, so I included a recent map. I merely found it odd connection, as I always wondered where JS came up with the word "Moroni".

Glad I wasn't overlooking an obvious name on the older map that everyone else was seeing clearly!

I don't doubt that Moroni is/was a place on Comoro, as your modern map showed clearly. The problem is figuring out how Joseph Smith knew. Because if it's only available on more-detailed modern maps and google searches, that means he could only have known it by--cue spooky music--supernatural revelation!

Either that or it's a coincidence, considering all the combinations of names in the Book of Mormon and all the place names on earth. But if anything, it seems more of a pro-supernatural argument than an anti-supernatural one.

By the way, just because I thought most people knew this but on some other thread somewhere I was surprised to find out some didn't... "Moron" was coined long after Joseph's Smith day as a term for a mentally disabled person, so in his day Moroni would simply have sounded like an odd, vaguely foreign name.

 

[kerikiwi]

... in his day Moroni would simply have sounded like an odd, vaguely foreign name.

It may have simply sounded like an odd, vaguely foreign name, but it is pleasingly prescient.

 

[DragonLady]

I don't doubt that Moroni is/was a place on Comoro, as your modern map showed clearly. The problem is figuring out how Joseph Smith knew. Because if it's only available on more-detailed modern maps and google searches, that means he could only have known it by--cue spooky music--supernatural revelation!

Or

He knew someone who had been there.
He saw the name in a newspaper or magazine.
He saw it on someone's mail or a tombstone.
He heard it in a song.
Etc.

There have to be lot of possibilities.

 

[RandFan]

Are you seriously suggesting that a translation error accounts for the claim that there was barley in the pre-Colombian Americas? I'll clear that one up. According to both the "American Frugal Housewife" and "Virginia Housewife" cookbooks, both published well before the first English dictionary the words barley and corn both appear (though I corn is sometimes spelled with a K).

But let's be clear. The plates were superfluous to the process and what Smith did would be better described as taking dictation.

David Whitmer said when Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he "put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.[21]

How does that result in "horse" instead of "deer"?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Since skyrider44 has flatly stated they are not here to convert anyone, because they know this is not fertile ground; I was wondering if RandFan, or anyone who is familiar with LDS dogma, knows if they, like JW's, encourage their followers to not waste time on those who are clearly not susceptible to conversion?

JW's Refer to Mark 6:11 and Matt 10:14 in this regard.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.( Mark )

 

[tsig]

It may have simply sounded like an odd, vaguely foreign name, but it is pleasingly prescient.

Lo, he was a prophet after all.

 

[RandFan]

Since skyrider44 has flatly stated they are not here to convert anyone, because they know this is not fertile ground; I was wondering if RandFan, or anyone who is familiar with LDS dogma, knows if they, like JW's, encourage their followers to not waste time on those who are clearly not susceptible to conversion?

JW's Refer to Mark 6:11 and Matt 10:14 in this regard.

It was something that was often discussed. As for shaking the dust of one's feet. Some elders (Mormon missionaries are elders) would perform a foot shaking ritual if someone were rude to us. I did it once or twice but it was largely in exasperation than anything else. I certainly didn't want anyone harmed. IOW: I didn't believe it.

 

[Pup]

Or

He knew someone who had been there.
He saw the name in a newspaper or magazine.
He saw it on someone's mail or a tombstone.
He heard it in a song.
Etc.

There have to be lot of possibilities.

I was joking about it being supernatural, and would lean toward the coincidence hypothesis, considering how many names and places there are in the Book of Mormon and how they could be combined in so many ways. But you know that people who want to find "proof" of the supernatural would say it couldn't possibly be a coincidence.

But some of the examples you listed are what I'm getting at. It's such an obscure area of Africa, that it should be traceable. Popular songs of the early 19th century are well documented. Even though there were slaves in New York state at that time, as far as I know the vast majority had come from West Africa, but it's a possibility. The items traded from the Madagascar area would be fairly limited and identifiable; I'm guessing medicines and spices. One could see if they were imported directly to upstate New York or via New York City. The newspapers and magazines available in that area probably still exist.

I don't have a lot of time (or that much interest) for investigating it--I'm tracing similar obscure information about a fellow in 19th century Virginia right now--but it's the kind of thing that's really fairly do-able.

Okay, in a quick search, for example, I can find several references to "the island of Comoro" or something similar, in New York newspapers' shipping news, between 1800 and 1830, but just like the maps and atlases, none so far mention Moroni.

On the other hand, "The tombs of the ancient Roman families of the Manhi, were lately discovered at the villa of the Count Moroni, near Rome...." (Amherst NY Farmer's Cabinet, Oct 17, 1809, and other New England papers).

Meanwhile, the latest from Milan, in the Sept 13, 1813 New York Evening Post: "The first column of the troops, from desden for Veronia begun its march at the end of May; this column is under Gen. Moroni, and..."

(Edited to add: The fact he's a general has some slight significance, since Moroni in the Book of Mormon is sometimes referred to as a general, because he and Mormon led troops.)

I'm leaning toward coincidence at this point, but if Comoro and Moroni could be found together in a way that Smith might have had access to, I think it would be a fascinating way of figuring out something he might have seen or someone he might have known, that's not been noticed before (at least not that I'm aware of).

 

[Olowkow]

Glad I wasn't overlooking an obvious name on the older map that everyone else was seeing clearly!

I don't doubt that Moroni is/was a place on Comoro, as your modern map showed clearly. The problem is figuring out how Joseph Smith knew. Because if it's only available on more-detailed modern maps and google searches, that means he could only have known it by--cue spooky music--supernatural revelation!

Either that or it's a coincidence, considering all the combinations of names in the Book of Mormon and all the place names on earth. But if anything, it seems more of a pro-supernatural argument than an anti-supernatural one.

By the way, just because I thought most people knew this but on some other thread somewhere I was surprised to find out some didn't... "Moron" was coined long after Joseph's Smith day as a term for a mentally disabled person, so in his day Moroni would simply have sounded like an odd, vaguely foreign name.

Well, according to Wiki, Moroni has been around since the 10th century, and its name actually means "in the heart of the fire" in the Cormorian language, so that pretty much rules out the African town's name having the angel as its namesake.

Moroni was founded by Arabic settlers possibly during the 10th century AD as the capital of a sultanate connected commercially to Zanzibar in Tanzania.

I remember the discussion of the word "moron" in an earlier thread, and I too was surprised how recent the etymology proved to be, so JS was surely risking little by grabbing this name in the era before the word's existence.

And, no "Moron+i" is not the Italian plural of the word, since the translation would be <idioti> in Italian.

 

[arthwollipot]

Moroni would be the plural of the hypothetical Latin masculine noun moronus.

 

[Olowkow]

Oh, this is kind of interesting. From an exmormon blog/forum someone had a eureka moment discussing Moroni on the Cormoros:

I recall someone going into great depth about Capitain Kidd and other pirates frequently this island--think buried treasure!
Subject: That nails it. That is the connection to realize, Smith used names associated with pirate stories, and his obsession with treasure digging...

ETA: The ex-mormon link above makes for some intriguing reading. I have no idea how factual any of this or the Wiki article below is.

Well, Wiki actually perpetuates the story of the African origins of the names in the article about the angel Moroni.

Some scholars have theorized that Smith became familiar with the name "Moroni" through his study of the treasure-hunting stories of Captain William Kidd.[5] Because Kidd was said to have buried treasure in the Comoros islands, and Moroni is the name of the capital city and largest settlement in the Union of the Comoros (a country formed in 1975), it has been suggested[who?]that Smith borrowed the name of the settlement and applied it to the angel who led him to buried treasure—the golden plates. Complementing this proposal is the theory that Smith borrowed the names of the Comoros islands and applied them to the hill where he found the golden plates, which he named Cumorah.[citation needed][6]

Latter-day Saint apologists have reasoned that this line of argument commits the logical error of appeal to probability; they also point out that it is unlikely that Smith had access to material which would have referred to the then-small settlement of Moroni .[7]

Getting curiouser and curiouser. So, that strikes me as a worthwhile line of research--proof of Smith's access to material about African pirates.

 

[Janadele]

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb2.shtml#top

http://mormanity.blogspot.com.au/2004/09/joseph-smith-and-comoros-islands.html

 

[DragonLady]

But let's be clear. The plates were superfluous to the process and what Smith did would be better described as taking dictation.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3861/smithtranslating.jpg

How does that result in "horse" instead of "deer"?

Okay...so tell me about the magick hat?

And...has anyone ever attempted to train deer as beasts of burden? I'm certain I've never heard of it outside stories of Santa Claus and laplanders, but has anyone tried it here? If deer were, in fact, used like horses, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? I guess they would require tack just like horses bridles, halters, blankets, saddles, etc? Does anyone know?

 

[Jon.]

Okay...so tell me about the magick hat?

And...has anyone ever attempted to train deer as beasts of burden? I'm certain I've never heard of it outside stories of Santa Claus and laplanders, but has anyone tried it here? If deer were, in fact, used like horses, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? I guess they would require tack just like horses bridles, halters, blankets, saddles, etc? Does anyone know?

I'm no archaeologist or historian, but some things that I would expect to find, in addition to what you've mentioned, would be:

• Art depicting the use of deer as beasts of burden and/or mounts.
• Native vocabulary including words relating to riding, as well as terms for all the items you mentioned.
• Domesticated deer, not just wild ones, when Europeans arrived.
• Use of mounts against hostile invaders on first contact.

 

[dafydd]

Okay...so tell me about the magick hat?

And...has anyone ever attempted to train deer as beasts of burden? I'm certain I've never heard of it outside stories of Santa Claus and laplanders, but has anyone tried it here? If deer were, in fact, used like horses, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? I guess they would require tack just like horses bridles, halters, blankets, saddles, etc? Does anyone know?

''Reindeer husbandry

Reindeer have been herded for centuries by several Arctic and Subarctic people including the Sami and the Nenets. They are raised for their meat, hides, antlers and, to a lessening extent, for milk and transportation. Reindeer are not considered fully domesticated, as they generally roam free on pasture grounds. The reindeer population originated from the wild deer that were used for luring other wild deer during hunting, or they were used as beasts of burden or draught animals. In a society of self-sufficiency, people used reindeer for many things. Reindeer were used as draught animals and beasts of burden, they gave meat and milk and the materials for clothing and tools. From early times, reindeer have been privately owned. ''

http://www.barentsinfo.org/?DeptID=4074


The Mormons try to claim that by ''deer'' Smith really meant ''goat'', ''tapir'' or ''llama''. I have rarely seen a more pathetic excuse. The page also mentions the authors of the BOM. I thought that god was supposed to have dictated it.

http://www.mormonfortress.com/horse.html


Mormon fortress? More like a paper house.

 

[Pup]

Oh, this is kind of interesting. From an exmormon blog/forum someone had a eureka moment discussing Moroni on the Cormoros:

I also ran into a couple of shipwreck accounts in the Comoro Islands (by whatever spelling) in the newspapers I was looking at, but none mentioned Moroni.

I think the skeptics may be getting too excited at finding connections between Moroni/Comoro in modern sources, before they find the actual smoking gun that mentions Moroni where Joseph Smith could have seen it.

When there's such a pattern of the name Moroni not showing up where one would expect it (maps, shipping accounts, gazetteers, etc. concerning the Comoros), I'm not yet willing to make a leap of faith and just assume Joseph Smith saw it, without further evidence, though I do think it's a strong possibility. Just not as strong as I first thought, before actually trying to find it in the period.

For example, a very detailed period gazetteer does not have Moroni, which should appear here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=fbMBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA492&output=html

But on p. 192 it does mention "Commorro Islands, in the Indian sea, about midway between the N. part of Madagascar, and the continent of Africa. They are four in number, the Great Commorro, Johanna, Mohilla, and Mayotta. The Great Commorro is in long. 43 degrees 10' E. lat 11 degrees 56' S." But it never drills down to the actual city of Moroni, unless it uses some oddball spelling that I haven't thought of.

By the way, what I do find over and over is the River Maroni in Guyana.
Example of a period mention:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TJA6AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA441&output=html
Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroni_(river)

But I don't see any really exciting Book of Mormon connection with Maroni, though I might be missing something.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Okay...so tell me about the magick hat?

And...has anyone ever attempted to train deer as beasts of burden? I'm certain I've never heard of it outside stories of Santa Claus and laplanders, but has anyone tried it here? If deer were, in fact, used like horses, what kind of evidence would we expect to find? I guess they would require tack just like horses bridles, halters, blankets, saddles, etc? Does anyone know?

At the very least, one would expect to see evidence of some sort of bridling...since deer are browsers, rather than grazers, a horse-style bit would not work. Modern images of tourists riding deer as novelties usually feature a hackmore-style halter. One would also expect to see deer-specific saddlery of some sort--like most ungulates, deer have much deeper spinal processes than horses, meaning any saddlery would have to project further form the ribcage.

One would expect to find not only evidence of the tack itself, but evidence of the tools and acoutrements needed to craft the tack.

One would also expect to find evidence of husbandry--confinements, shelters, arrangements for storage of silage, and so on.

One would also expect to find representations of the act of riding--monuments, glyphs, murals, something.

...none of which is in evidence at all.

And, of course, all of this completely overlooks the fundamental unsuitability of cerviforms for riding. A deer has neither the strength nor the endurance of a horse of similar size, nor are they generally as tractable. There are also gait issues.

 

[dafydd]

I think that Smith was just taking the mickey.

 

[Olowkow]

Not that it matters a lot, but the Mormon article provided by Janadele differs from Wiki and the Britannica as regards the date when the town became the capital of Comoros Island.

Well, not so fast. Gerald Smith's response points out that Moroni did not become the capital until 1876. It appears that maps and gazetteers of Joseph's day (which he probably never had access to anyway) often neglected the Comoros Islands, and didn't show Moroni at all. The case for plagiarism doesn't make much sense.

Moroni, coastal town, capital, and largest settlement of Comoros, southwestern Grande Comore (also called Njazidja) island in the Indian Ocean. It was founded by Arabic-speaking settlers, possibly as early as the 10th century ad. Dzaoudzi, the principal city of the island of Mayotte, was the original administrative capital of Comoros, but Moroni succeeded it in 1958.

Now, if there were a Nephi street in Dzaoudzi...well, we'd be on to something.