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Janadele said:
Neither I nor the writers at Fair are deceived by anti-Mormon propaganda:

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/jone...on-claims-that-b-h-roberts-lost-his-testimony

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/jones-mckay/did-b-h-roberts-abandon-his-faith-in-the-book-of-mormon

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/B.H._Roberts'_testimony

"An excellent argument against the claim that B.H. Roberts abandoned the Book of Mormon can be found in his last book, which he considered his masterwork. [B. H. Roberts, The Truth, the Way, the Life: An Elementary Treatise on Theology, edited by John W. Welch (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Studies, 1994).]
Given Roberts' clear respect for the Book of Mormon in this volume, there can be little doubt that he continued to believe in and treasure it.
Ironically for the critics, many of the issues which drew Elder Roberts' attention have now been solved as more information about the ancient world has become available. He expressed faith that this would be the case, and has been vindicated:
We who accept the Book of Mormon as a revelation from God have every reason to believe that it will endure every test; and the more thoroughly it is investigated, the greater shall be its ultimate triumph"
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Why are you less worthy of a revelation from god than Joe Smith?
 
Janadele, is it your view that barley, horses, cattle, cart building and steel manufacture all existed in America before they were all brought from Europe, but the evidence for any such simply hasn't been found?

If all the evidence which has been found indicates America was populated by cultures which did not have any of these things, is that just a remarkable coincidence, or do you suppose someone (or someOne) has contrived to erase or suppress the particular evidence for some reason?
 
Ok, so The Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was founded by the charismatic charlatan, Joseph Smith. He scammed into existence The Book of Mormon using the same basic look-in-a-dark-hat routine he'd used in his glass-looking con games. The Book, itself, is riddled with many errors of historic fact. In the case of the Book of Abraham portion, the actual text was proven to have no relationship whatsoever to the source for the translation.

Nonetheless, Mormonism is a religion of respectable size and vitality. And, too, its followers stereotypically have many positive virtues and are the type of people most would like as neighbors and friends, religion aside. Despite its roots in shear fabrication and its long history of bigotry and misogyny, the Mormon religion still has some very positive aspects.


My question now is how does the Church add to its flock? What compels a non-Mormon to become one? Disabling someone's basic disbelief in nonsense is a slow and difficult process. Let's call it what it is, brainwashing. Not so tough with children, but for adults it is much more difficult I would think to instill acceptance of what is so clearly a fraudulent base.

Are there documented techniques the Church uses to indoctrinate new members? Is there something of a standard profile for the typical adult convert? For that matter, what are the retention rates for its members and how do they compare with other Christian denomination.


ETA: As Pup's wife as demonstrated, all Mormons are not alike. There is a spectrum covering a range of rational thought with respect to the tenets and foundation of the belief. Although I didn't qualify my wording, above, my intent is to explore the more dogmatic factions.
 
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jsfisher said:
Ok, so The Church Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was founded by the charismatic charlatan, Joseph Smith. He scammed into existence The Book of Mormon using the same basic look-in-a-dark-hat routine he'd used in his glass-looking con games. The Book, itself, is riddled with many errors of historic fact. In the case of the Book of Abraham portion, the actual text had no relationship whatsoever to the source for the translation.

Nonetheless, Mormonism is a religion of respectable size and vitality. And, too, its followers stereotypically have many positive virtues and are the type of people most would like as neighbors and friends, religion aside. Despite its roots in shear fabrication and its long history of bigotry and misogyny, the Mormon religion still has some very positive aspects.


My question now is how does the Church add to its flock? What compels a non-Mormon to become one? Disabling someone's basic disbelief in nonsense is a slow and difficult process. Let's call it what it is, brainwashing. Not so tough with children, but for adults it is much more difficult I would think to instill acceptance of what is so clearly a fraudulent base.

Are there documented techniques the Church uses to indoctrinate new members? Is there something of a standard profile for the typical adult convert? For that matter, what are the retention rates for its members and how do they compare with other Christian denomination.
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Great question.

One more. How does the Church retain members?

Mormon Church Admitting the Internet is Hurting Retention of Members

You've hit the nail on the head. The weak arguments of the apologists to counter the arguments made by critics simply cannot compete to the rational and reasoned mind.
 
Janadele said:
Abel did not lose his eternal life, only his mortal life... and that is destined to be lost no matter of what earthly duration. Death of the mortal body is inevitable.
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Okay. So why wasn't Cain allowed to lose his mortal body?

Cain begged God not to banish him, because someone might kill him. This proves that other people knew killing his brother was wrong. He knew those other people would believe killing him was just and right.

But God prevented that by putting a mark on him. He did not intercede to prevent Abel (who had pleased God) from being murdered. But he did intercede to prevent Cain (who had Displeased God -Twice) from being killed in turn by people who believed that would serve their justice.

We can't have it both ways. We can't say "God doesn't interfere with our trials" and then turn around and clearly show God protects murderers.

All circumstances and stages of our eternal progression will be taken into account at judgement, and that is all that is of consequence.
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First...really? I think Abel just might disagree!

Second...that's scary! The same Eternal God that stood quietly while Abel was murdered but took steps to aid and abet his murderer is going to preside at Judgment? :eek:

---------Personal Aside--------

Janadele, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs. And a pretty darn good sport for continuing to come here to share those beliefs. No one is going to blame you -or find fault with you- if you simply throw up your hands and say "I'm a Mormon because it makes me happy" and leave it at that. ;)
 
The Book of Mormon is Scripture and LDS Doctrine... and therefore true. All things are possible with the Lord.

Jack by the hedge said:
Janadele, is it your view that barley, horses, cattle, cart building and steel manufacture all existed in America before they were all brought from Europe, but the evidence for any such simply hasn't been found?
If all the evidence which has been found indicates America was populated by cultures which did not have any of these things, is that just a remarkable coincidence, or do you suppose someone (or someOne) has contrived to erase or suppress the particular evidence for some reason?
Click to expand...
 
jsfisher said:
My question now is how does the Church add to its flock? What compels a non-Mormon to become one? Disabling someone's basic disbelief in nonsense is a slow and difficult process. Let's call it what it is, brainwashing. Not so tough with children, but for adults it is much more difficult I would think to instill acceptance of what is so clearly a fraudulent base.

Are there documented techniques the Church uses to indoctrinate new members? Is there something of a standard profile for the typical adult convert? For that matter, what are the retention rates for its members and how do they compare with other Christian denomination.
Click to expand...

I imagine most are converts from other sects, who have become disenfranchised with their particular church but are still believers. It's far easier to convert a believer to a different belief than to convert a nonbeliever (adult) to belief.
 
Janadele said:
The Book of Mormon is Scripture and LDS Doctrine... and therefore true. All things are possible with the Lord.
Click to expand...

Do you purposefully type your response BEFORE the quoted post? You know this is poor forum etiquette correct?
 
Thank you DragonLady, that is sweet of you :)

If I were to do so, I would say I am a Latter-day Saint.

DragonLady said:
---------Personal Aside--------

Janadele, I believe you are sincere in your beliefs. And a pretty darn good sport for continuing to come here to share those beliefs. No one is going to blame you -or find fault with you- if you simply throw up your hands and say "I'm a Mormon because it makes me happy" and leave it at that. ;)
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Why do you think it is poor forum etiquette? I disagree.
If one navigates to a profile to read the posts of a particular poster it is so much easier if they are before the quoted post.
Quad4_72 said:
Do you purposefully type your response BEFORE the quoted post? You know this is poor forum etiquette correct?
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Stomatopoda said:
I imagine most are converts from other sects, who have become disenfranchised with their particular church but are still believers. It's far easier to convert a believer to a different belief than to convert a nonbeliever (adult) to belief.
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Sure, but only to a point. Jumping between Methodist and Baptist isn't a major transition. To Roman Catholic may be a bit more because of all the guilt and ceremony. Jumping to Mormonism, though, has a whole new wrinkle of an added prophet and many more pages of scripture.

The Catholic and Protestant denominations all deal with the same basic text (more or less) and the same basic legend. If I may trivialize a bit, the differences are mostly procedural.

With the Mormons, the whole Joseph Smith part is all new. Wouldn't converts from other Christian religions want to focus on learning about the stuff that wasn't in what they left behind? The more you look, the more nonsense it appears, so how does the Mormon Church keep the new recruits away from the more troublesome areas of its foundation?
 
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Janadele said:
Why do you think it is poor forum etiquette? I disagree.
If one navigates to a profile to read the posts of a particular poster it is so much easier if they are before the quoted post.
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Posting your response below the quote is Scripture and Internet Doctrine... and therefore good etiquette. Some things are possible with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
 
Janadele said:
The Book of Mormon is Scripture and LDS Doctrine... and therefore true. All things are possible with the Lord.
Click to expand...
Does this mean you think the errors which have been listed(barley, horses, steel etc) are not, in fact, errors?
A simple yes or no will do.
 
Janadele said:
The Book of Mormon is Scripture and LDS Doctrine... and therefore true. All things are possible with the Lord.
Click to expand...
That's fine in a sense, but it once again raises the question of why this thread is here. If you can and will not admit any error or untruth here, and anything deemed impossible is simply possible with the Lord, then you cannot make your case to anyone who does not already accept Mormon scripture as definitive, and to those no case need be made. The integrity of faith is lost in argument.
 
I respectfully suggest that your syllogism is incorrect. "C" does not follow from "P." (See Post 689 by RandFan.) Why? Because victims do not have free will when in the process of becoming victims; otherwise they would exercise it. Therefore, it is not plausible to conclude that God values killers' free will over victims' free will. To argue otherwise is to assert that God intervenes to keep mortals, including mass murderers, from exercising their free will. Oh, that it were so.
 
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